CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

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Duck!
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:32 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:
bychosis wrote:I wonder how it copes with mud/rain/grit. The little bearings appear to be relatively unprotected.
I imagine the spin-rate would keep a lot of gunk out of there...maybe.
Curious conundrum... Although the shaft would be spinning at a decent rate, the little bearings would only go through a tiny movement on each moment of contact, so they'd have a very slow rotation rate, making them somewhat more prone to binding or suffering impact effects from dirt caught between the meat-grinder.... oh, sorry, sprocket teeth and the shaft lobe bearings.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:05 am

My concern is that the side force for the 'cassette' and driveshaft means that they are trying to push away from one another. While the shaft can be more rigid by connecting between the BB and dropout - the cassette unit in the lowest gears (towards the outer edge) are more likely to be affected by flex. Chain-slip would appear to be a bigger problem than with a more conventional drive.

An interesting observation is that there are fewer contact points. At the front and back, at any one point, there are only a few teeth while on a conventional chain around the front chainring, two jockey wheels and a cog, there is more contact.

I think this is very much where the efficiency claims come into play. Ceramic Speed eliminate the amount of contact points so on the condition that the drive is effective, there is certainly less resistance and better peformance. But I am speculating that the power transfer is the week point for the reasons mentioned above.

Drive shaft systems have traditionally suffered from inefficiency. Biomega has them and even the recent but failed IKEA bike though the drive shaft idea is over 100 years old. While it is nice to see a shifting concept on the Ceramic Speed (actually havn't seen it shifting) once any real power needs to go through, it is possibly that the performance gains are then lost because more friction is required between the driveshaft and from and rear cassette.
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:26 am

I'd like to see it in a high-torque scenario, i.e. 90+kg rider, uphill, low-speed grind. Think the crown wheel at the rear would probably deform unless there's a very clever hub design behind it...I dunno, just speculating.
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby MichaelB » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:51 am

10speedsemiracer wrote:I'd like to see it in a high-torque scenario, i.e. 90+kg rider, uphill, low-speed grind. Think the crown wheel at the rear would probably deform unless there's a very clever hub design behind it...I dunno, just speculating.
No need to speculate.

It WILL.

The ability for the 'cassette' to support any load and resist deflection that far from the centre support means it would have to be very stiff, therefore heavy, and therefore useless for what is proposed.

I re-iterate "dumb idea" all about marketing.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby ironhanglider » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:07 pm

I don't know why they didn't turn it around and have a single cog at the back and the 13 cog arrangement at the front with the teeth pointing inwards. That might help solve some of the issues raised above.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:50 pm

ironhanglider wrote:I don't know why they didn't turn it around and have a single cog at the back and the 13 cog arrangement at the front with the teeth pointing inwards. That might help solve some of the issues raised above.
The 'deflection' problem isn't solved without removing the initial aim of low friction... and more importantly (but let me save my brain power), the sizing necessary to duplicate an expected gear range would likely still mean that the 'cog / chain ring' in the rear would be large and still have the 'stiffness issue.


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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:13 pm

And now we see stooped marketing taken to the next level :roll:

Oh, but it's now tested as more aero than a std chainring setup**

CeramicSpeed’s shaft-drive drivetrain now confirmed aero

Are they serious ….. a new low in CT's journalism credentials.





**without actual data or something that is actually a working solution, never mind about the weight ….. :roll:

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby Duck! » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:07 pm

While they claim to have made "significant steps" in making it shift gears, they still haven't come close to proving it as a functional, let alone viable system.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:24 pm

Duck! wrote:While they claim to have made "significant steps" in making it shift gears, they still haven't come close to proving it as a functional, let alone viable system.
Significant steps in marketing effort, maybe.

Can’t see anything else resembling improvement or practicality.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby RobertL » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:48 am

Duck! wrote:While they claim to have made "significant steps" in making it shift gears, they still haven't come close to proving it as a functional, let alone viable system.
Exactly. I'm mentally filing this under: Looks interesting. Will be great if it works. Won't waste my time on it until they announce a working version.

I've seen too many of these sort of things to get too excited at this stage.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby MichaelB » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:15 am

RobertL wrote:
Duck! wrote:While they claim to have made "significant steps" in making it shift gears, they still haven't come close to proving it as a functional, let alone viable system.
Exactly. I'm mentally filing this under: Looks interesting. Will be great if it works. Won't waste my time on it until they announce a working version.

I've seen too many of these sort of things to get too excited at this stage.
I’ll file it as a marketing exercise only. Will never work as advertised, won’t be cost effective, won’t be light therefore absolute load of shite from the beginning.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:08 pm

I will take a look at it at Eurobike... but was likewise surprised with the style of the CT coverage.

The Ceramic Speed drives are concepts... as the previous 'almost zero resistance drive train' has already been challenged from every angle, I would expect that press adapt accordingly.

Press releases and press coverage need to reflect that they are concepts for demonstration. Reading the press release and the CyclingTips coverage, I feel that the average reader would understand that this 99% efficient and super-aerodynamic drivetrain are market-ripe and will be available to buy in the near future.
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby Mububban » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:33 am

It shifts! :mrgreen:

When you are driving your car, you are not stuck IN traffic - you ARE the traffic!!!

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby Bunged Knee » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:31 am

Read more from Cyclingtips.com



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ID please? What ID? My seat tube ID is 27.2mm or 31.6mm depending on what bikes I ride today.thanks...

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby MichaelB » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:17 am

Interesting and obviously pouring in some money to it, but as I thought about it last night, is reminding me more and more of the Orbital Engine.

Something good may come out of it, but more like a loss leader marketing tool to me.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby P!N20 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:06 am

I reckon the UCI will be eager to approve this.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby RobertL » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:15 pm

MichaelB wrote:Interesting and obviously pouring in some money to it, but as I thought about it last night, is reminding me more and more of the Orbital Engine.

Something good may come out of it, but more like a loss leader marketing tool to me.
Or maybe it will be more like Ford's T-drive. The got that concept working, and it had advantages - on paper - but they just couldn't get the vibration or reliability sorted out to make it viable. Pity - I liked that idea.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby bychosis » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:16 pm

The video mentions they think it would pair nicely with a gearbox to get back some of the losses in the gearbox. That hints that hey are developing it as a driveshaft system with no gears. The shift mechanism seems over complicated and they haven’t worked it out for the MTB dual suspension system yet either
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:44 pm

GCN also had a look at it at Eurobike :



The words 'Danger Zone' don't inspire confidence
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby P!N20 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:24 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:The words 'Danger Zone' don't inspire confidence
Nor does the grim reaper at 2:42.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby MichaelB » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:26 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:GCN also had a look at it at Eurobike :

...
The words 'Danger Zone' don't inspire confidence


I'd love to see some schematics of the various stages of shifting, as it sounds feasible, but still has the Orbital Engine feel to me.

The other thing that bugs me, is no-one, and I mean NO-ONE asks the obvious but hard questions. They just swallow the marketing and regurgitate it and smile. :roll:

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:47 pm

I was thinking more Sterling Archer :
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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby Tim » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:55 pm

Seems to me Ceramicspeed are in the business of selling outrageously expensive, unnecessary products to the gullible cycling community.
For example, ceramic bottom bracket bearings. Great bearings for high speed, high temp applications eg. bearings spinning at 10,000 RPM+. How fast do I peddle? About 85 RPM.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby P!N20 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:03 pm

Tim wrote:Seems to me Ceramicspeed are in the business of selling outrageously expensive, unnecessary products to the gullible cycling community.
Yeah, it’s a saturated market.

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Re: CeramicSpeed DrivEn drivetrain

Postby RobertL » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:06 am

Tim wrote:...the gullible cycling community...
Well, it's a target-rich environment!

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