Endurance VS Race or somewhere in between?

Vilante · Postby **Vilante** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:06 pm

Hi All,

I've been lurking here a while but have never posted until now. I'm going to buy my first serious bike in a few weeks time and I have a conundrum. I'm buying it because I'm doing a long ride at the end of the year, 1000km over 9 days, but if I'm going to be spending a decent amount of cash on a bike I think I'll want it for a lot more than just that one ride.

I've been looking at endurance style bikes but a visit to a bike shop yesterday suggested I look at an aero. Now, I'm not sure whether he was just trying to sell me what he had or was being genuine but it got me thinking. What if I want to do some races later? Should I be looking down this road?

I'm 38, 176cm, 77kg and looking to spend around $2K.

Due to my lack of experience (currently riding a flat bar alu bike) I'd love it if anyone could share an opinion to lean on as I try to ride a few over the next few weeks.

Cheers,
Vil

MattyK · Postby **MattyK** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:45 pm

I'd say get a comfortable bike (there's no reason apart from budget that it can't also be reasonably aero). You'll be able to race it; maybe it won't be the ultimate race weapon but I doubt it would be the limiting factor in your results. You can always tweak the stem height and saddle position between events.

<edit> and there's always n+1...

2wheels_mond · Postby **2wheels_mond** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:01 pm

Being comfortable is about 5000 times* more important than being aero.

* plus or minus 1000.

lobstermash · Postby **lobstermash** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:04 pm

You can set up most road bikes to be aggressive or endurance. It's just a couple of tweaks to the fit. I think bike marketers like making up these categories to get people to buy what are essentially multiples of the same thing - though some are so aggressive (short head tube and pre-cut steerer) or relaxed (extremely long head tube and short-ish top tube) to lock in their intended purpose. Get a bike that fits and set it up so that you feel comfortable for the sort of rides that you do.

Duck! · Postby **Duck!** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:20 pm

lobstermash wrote:You can set up most road bikes to be aggressive or endurance. It's just a couple of tweaks to the fit. I think bike marketers like making up these categories to get people to buy what are essentially multiples of the same thing - though some are so aggressive (short head tube and pre-cut steerer) or relaxed (extremely long head tube and short-ish top tube) to lock in their intended purpose.

Changes in wheelbase can't exactly be tweaked out.... The major differences between the two styles of bike are: Endurance geometry has a longer wheelsbase, for more stable handling. This trades off a small amount of stiffness, which makes a race bike more responsive under power; Endurance bikes are typically shorter in the top tube (by 10-15mm for a given size), and taller in the head by a similar amount, bringing the rider's position more upright. You can compensate for these to an extent, but may bring handling compromises, especially if fiddling around with the stem lengths.

Further, when it comes to carbon frames, the nature of the material enables the frame designers to tune the ride by playing with tube profiles & layup patterns, to allow flex in certain directions, and more stiffness in others, in ways that are not possible with metallic frames. These differences are more subtle than the geometric variations, but still make a distinct difference to the character of the bikes.

lobstermash · Postby **lobstermash** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:08 pm

Duck! wrote:
lobstermash wrote:You can set up most road bikes to be aggressive or endurance. It's just a couple of tweaks to the fit. I think bike marketers like making up these categories to get people to buy what are essentially multiples of the same thing - though some are so aggressive (short head tube and pre-cut steerer) or relaxed (extremely long head tube and short-ish top tube) to lock in their intended purpose.
Changes in wheelbase can't exactly be tweaked out.... The major differences between the two styles of bike are: Endurance geometry has a longer wheelsbase, for more stable handling. This trades off a small amount of stiffness, which makes a race bike more responsive under power; Endurance bikes are typically shorter in the top tube (by 10-15mm for a given size), and taller in the head by a similar amount, bringing the rider's position more upright. You can compensate for these to an extent, but may bring handling compromises, especially if fiddling around with the stem lengths.

Further, when it comes to carbon frames, the nature of the material enables the frame designers to tune the ride by playing with tube profiles & layup patterns, to allow flex in certain directions, and more stiffness in others, in ways that are not possible with metallic frames. These differences are more subtle than the geometric variations, but still make a distinct difference to the character of the bikes.

Perhaps I'm just a cynic... Or not sensitive enough to notice such subtle differences.

Vilante · Postby **Vilante** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:04 pm

Great replies, much appreciated all!!

I'm excited to get out and do some test rides.

warthog1 · Postby **warthog1** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:42 pm

One thing to consider is you can achieve an endurance fit on a race style frame with spacers and shorter handlebar stem.
You cant necessarily achieve a race fit on an endurance frame due to the longer head tube.
You'll probably get pretty close though.

Dirty32 · Postby **Dirty32** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:44 am

Always a pleasure reading your posts and reponses on here, Duck!
Always clear and to the point but with enough detail, that a non engineer can understand.

Keep it up!
Thanks.

jasonc · Postby **jasonc** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:40 pm

I had a race geometry bike which we (my biomechanic and I) could not turn into an Endurance geometry bike
I now have an endurance bike
Sadly, my body says no to a race geometry bike.

CKinnard · Postby **CKinnard** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:53 pm

I'd never own just one bike for the sake of 1 ride at the end of the year. BTW, are you having to carry any gear on that 9 day adventure, and requiring panniers?

You don't say how old you are, or how stiff your joints, which is a major consideration when determining appropriate geometry.

I'm 55, and over 25,000km and dedicated stretching and position challenges, have been able to slam my stem and extend from 110 to 130mm.
My current bike is a relaxed road bike geometry, but I am due for a new bike now and could easily go a pure race geometry (longer effective top tube and shorter head tube).

The main measurements I'd suggest you become familiar with are

- reach. this is a reasonable proxy for effective top tube and is arguably the most important measure when considering frame size. It's the horizontal distance from BB to center of head tube.

- stack. stack best indicates the practical range of back angles (how upright your back is). It's the vertical distance from BB to top of head tube and correlates reasonably with head tube length (longer head tubes are found on more relaxed geometry enduro bikes)
If a manufacturer doesn't stipulate these, you can get an idea from effective (horizontal) top tube length, and head tube length.

To my mind, other pertinent differences between endurance and race bikes are

- chain stay length, the most signifcant variant of wheelbase. (shorter cs length = more responsive handling and a theoretically harsher ride).
- compact frame, which means a downward sloping top tube. The steeper the slope the lower the standover height, however it can compromise water bottle storage on the seat tube cage.

Other considerations.
An integrated seat post can make it more difficult to get a bicycle into a bike box.

g-boaf · Postby **g-boaf** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:59 pm

I think you can be perfectly comfortable on a racing frame provided it is fitted properly to you and you find the right saddle/bars combo. I've got a Giant TCR SL1 and that is quite comfortable with the correct fit. I find it pretty stable as well. It's a lovely, steady thing to ride, not twitchy or tricky at all. On of my other bikes is endurance geometry, and I prefer the Giant.

And on that note, my Cervelo P5 TT bike is also quite comfortable because of the fit (and the Adamo TT saddle). But it is nasty in crosswind conditions, as you might expect because the shape from the side acts like a sail. I am however somewhat flexible and lean, though I do have a few injury niggles from time to time.

As said above, an integrated seat post can make travel a bit difficult, and you've got to get the height correct pretty much first go.

RonK · Postby **RonK** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:08 pm

I would have thought the commonsense approach would be to get an endurance or grand fondo type bike. You won't regret it after 9 sequential days of riding more than 100km per day.

TT bikes and aggresive racers take a lot of riding to adapt to and are not a wise choice for beginners.

g-boaf · Postby **g-boaf** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:29 pm

My first bike, having not ridden one for maybe 15 years or more was an endurance/relaxed geometry one and to be honest, I don't see it being more comfortable than the supposedly full on race machine Giant.

The TT reference was only to point to the importance of the right saddle. Other than that, you'd not use it every day. That is one of the major things that will affect you. A bad saddle will make every bike ride horrible.

macca33 · Postby **macca33** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:53 pm

Bit of a conundrum this - for mine, 40yo+, having ridden 30000Km+ over the past 2.5 years, mostly on crappy chip-seal roads, I have had no issue with 'race' geometry bikes - aluminium at that!

There is quite a bit of adjustement available in all bikes nowadays and as long as the frame is right - stems / bars / saddles / cranks can be tailored to suit.

I would have no issue riding my CAAD10s for corresponding days - have done numerous 180Km+ straight rides and a few 250Km+ days without any issue. Tyres and tyre pressure can also serve to assist comfort levels.

The best thing would be for the OP to try as many bikes as he can to detemine which one will be the 'best fit' for him.

cheers

simonn · Postby **simonn** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:18 pm

You can race, for fun, on an "endurance" road bike. If you get serious you will ~~probably~~ spend more than $2k on a race bike anyway. The endurance bike will then become a audax/commuter/rain bike.

IMHO (and experience), comfort comes from core strength (and a good saddle, don't ask what a good saddle your bum will tell you that). Get thy to a gym and/or pilates/dynamic yoga class and work on your core with a decent trainer. Three months of that 2-3 times a week and you'll happily be riding a slammed to BANNED aero roadie. Will take a lot longer if you "just ride" on an endurance bike. Also better for your health, life, looking good at the beach

etc etc

I'd have no problem doing 1000km over 9 days on my "race"* roadie:

If I was to (attempt to) do it in 3 and a bit days, I'd rather go my (proper) endurance (i.e. audax) bike:

Both are "race" frames.

(*Only once, I'm not going to fork out for a gold license now they have stopped day licenses at West Head. I don't have time to train properly anyway to make it more than just for fun).

warthog1 · Postby **warthog1** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:12 pm

jasonc wrote:I had a race geometry bike which we (my biomechanic and I) could not turn into an Endurance geometry bike
I now have an endurance bike
Sadly, my body says no to a race geometry bike.

If you haven't cut the steerer tube too short why not? Was the race geometry bike the wrong frame size for you?
A shorter stem (less reach) and higher bars through more spacers under the stem or an angled stem should get it pretty close for most people.

Vilante · Postby **Vilante** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:36 am

A huge thanks to everyone for their responses! Much appreciated.

CKinnard wrote:I'd never own just one bike for the sake of 1 ride at the end of the year. BTW, are you having to carry any gear on that 9 day adventure, and requiring panniers?

You don't say how old you are, or how stiff your joints, which is a major consideration when determining appropriate geometry.

I'm 38, still quite flexible. I'm a bootcamp tragic so my core is pretty good too.

I've been in contact with about 10 bike shops in Sydney since I posted this trying to line up some rides and chats this weekend.

Boy, isn't there great disparity in approaches? I've had people trying to sell me what they have over the phone and telling me how rubbish all the other brands are, people make fun of me thinking my ride is a decent effort (what sort of a sales tactic is that?) and people really willing to help. I kinda expected the latter from everyone, since I want to give them a wad of cash for a bike?

So I plan on riding as many bikes as shops will let me over the next few weeks to see if one stands out as more of a fit than others.

This weekend I'm visiting dealers of the following brands, so it should give me a good base to work from: Giant, Trek, Specialized, Wilier, Merida, I'm excited

simonn · Postby **simonn** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:46 am

Checkout http://www.bicyclesonline.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (ironically they have shop in Manly right near Bike Addiction) and http://www.this link is broken/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (who also have a shop in Stanmore, but prices mght be different, I have never been there). They are low on the bling level, but awesome value (e.g. http://www.bicyclesonline.com.au/2015-p ... -22-speed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I know quite a few people who are happily riding them, and actually race, not just ride to the cafe and talk about how great X frame is (that comes from the same handful of factories in China/Taiwan that build the frames for all the brands).

Vilante wrote:I've had people trying to sell me what they have over the phone and telling me how rubbish all the other brands are, people make fun of me thinking my ride is a decent effort (what sort of a sales tactic is that?) and people really willing to help. I kinda expected the latter from everyone, since I want to give them a wad of cash for a bike?

It's what happens when an industry revolves around enthusiasts rather than retailers.

jasonc · Postby **jasonc** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:43 am

warthog1 wrote:
jasonc wrote:I had a race geometry bike which we (my biomechanic and I) could not turn into an Endurance geometry bike
I now have an endurance bike
Sadly, my body says no to a race geometry bike.
If you haven't cut the steerer tube too short why not? Was the race geometry bike the wrong frame size for you?
A shorter stem (less reach) and higher bars through more spacers under the stem or an angled stem should get it pretty close for most people.

the steerer was seriously short from when I bought (new). and yes, the bike was the wrong size also

g-boaf · Postby **g-boaf** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:48 am

Vilante wrote:A huge thanks to everyone for their responses! Much appreciated.

CKinnard wrote:I'd never own just one bike for the sake of 1 ride at the end of the year. BTW, are you having to carry any gear on that 9 day adventure, and requiring panniers?

You don't say how old you are, or how stiff your joints, which is a major consideration when determining appropriate geometry.
I'm 38, still quite flexible. I'm a bootcamp tragic so my core is pretty good too.

I've been in contact with about 10 bike shops in Sydney since I posted this trying to line up some rides and chats this weekend.

Boy, isn't there great disparity in approaches? I've had people trying to sell me what they have over the phone and telling me how rubbish all the other brands are, people make fun of me thinking my ride is a decent effort (what sort of a sales tactic is that?) and people really willing to help. I kinda expected the latter from everyone, since I want to give them a wad of cash for a bike?

So I plan on riding as many bikes as shops will let me over the next few weeks to see if one stands out as more of a fit than others.

This weekend I'm visiting dealers of the following brands, so it should give me a good base to work from: Giant, Trek, Specialized, Wilier, Merida, I'm excited

Can I recommend you visit Velocipede in Parramatta (Sorrell Street). They do Specialized, Focus, Bianchi and Fuji:

http://www.velocipede.com.au/bikes/road/mens/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my short time dealing with them, I've found them to be very switched on. They will look after you.

Chuck · Postby **Chuck** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:38 am

simonn wrote:You can race, for fun, on an "endurance" road bike. If you get serious you will ~~probably~~ spend more than $2k on a race bike anyway. The endurance bike will then become a audax/commuter/rain bike.

IMHO (and experience), comfort comes from core strength (and a good saddle, don't ask what a good saddle your bum will tell you that). Get thy to a gym and/or pilates/dynamic yoga class and work on your core with a decent trainer. Three months of that 2-3 times a week and you'll happily be riding a slammed to BANNED aero roadie. Will take a lot longer if you "just ride" on an endurance bike. Also better for your health, life, looking good at the beach etc etc

I'd have no problem doing 1000km over 9 days on my "race"* roadie:

If I was to (attempt to) do it in 3 and a bit days, I'd rather go my (proper) endurance (i.e. audax) bike:

Both are "race" frames.

(*Only once, I'm not going to fork out for a gold license now they have stopped day licenses at West Head. I don't have time to train properly anyway to make it more than just for fun).

Nice rides and decent advice there simonn.

Rambo · Postby **Rambo** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:08 pm

Sorry for the ad, but please check out my Malvern Star C7

Aside from being a top machine, it has an somewhat unusual geometry. The head tube is generous, and it kinda sounds like yr in the same position I was when I bought it.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/m-my-ad.html?adId=1067956550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vilante · Postby **Vilante** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:54 am

I can't see your Ad rambo, I think you might have copied the link from your account or something? I think I have my heart set on a new bike but would like to see it.

So I had a good weekend out testing bikes. These were the first race bikes I've been on so they're very different to what I'm riding now, so not 100% sure I know what I'm feeling for, but it was fun

I rode the Trek Domane 1.5, the Specialized Roubaix, the Giant Defy and the Wilier 105 GTR. I rode them all in 105 spec.

My fave was the Wilier. It was a bit relaxed (I had a quick go on a TCR for comparison) but but not as much as the rest, still pretty racy (exciting to ride), so it was kinda the best of both worlds. The LBS I was at was having a sale too so I can get the 2015 model with Ultegra for the same price as the Trek and Specialized mentioned above in 105.

It was in the white:

http://cdn4.coresites.mpora.com/rcuk/wp ... G_2601.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't feel like I've ridden enough bikes yet though, so I'm hoping they'll give me till Monday on the sale price. I want to ride the Avantia DR1, the Bianchi Intenso and anything else I can see this week and weekend.

Any experiences with the WIlier or suggestions for other bikes to ride would be appreciated

CKinnard · Postby **CKinnard** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:21 pm

Vilante, I'd suggest you test ride a Cannondale CAAD8 and a Giant Defy One, both aluminium roadie with 105.
The money you save on not going carbon can be used to upgrade your wheelset and saddle.

Don't get overly attached to carbon. Apart from having my Trek carbon frame recently fail (and having my time wasted by Trek and told outright lies by their Brisbane rep), a lot of seasoned cyclists I know have been moving back to aluminium or steel bikes in the last 2 years. And endurance guys are going to steel and titanium.

The frames are just that much more durable, though admittedly the aesthetics are not as engaging.

In saying that, the Willier looks sweet, though has a short head tube for an endurance bike.
You want to seriously weight the warranty.
From recent threads and my experience, Giant appear to be the least hassle to deal with.