Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
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Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby BetterIwas » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:52 pm
Looking for drop bar relaxed geometry bike with discs.
I know hydraulic are supposedly better than mechanical but is it lack of fade or are they just better. Is it just overegging the cake ?
Some of the bikes I am looking at have mechanical discs (Apollo & Cannondale).
I live in a hilly area and sometimes the roads are damp.
I use 700x32 tyres (Durano Plus) - my thinking is that I trade some 10% of speed for better braking performance. Am I correct or just talking out of my hat ?
Thanks
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Calvin27 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:55 pm
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Duck! » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:33 pm
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby rifraf » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:10 pm
I know how to change a cable and I figured on my touring bike BB7's made a lot more sense for me personally.
Absolutely love my BB7's compared to V-brakes though.
I remember listening to forum member Aushiker lamenting having hydraulic brakes on his Giant XTC mountain bike when he lost pressure on them whilst on the Munda Biddi I think it was.
Anyway, somewhere where plenty of braking was necessary but he was unable to fix in the field to his great inconvenience.
When he got home he promptly tossed the hydro's and replaced them with BB7's.
Sold me on the idea of cables
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby MichaelB » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:16 am
The Polygon had the Shimano 517, and they did really well, in terms of power and feel. Not as good as hydro, but still pretty damn good.
If you have the budget and capability, go Hysro, but if budget constrained , go cable BUT God quality calipers
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby baabaa » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:28 am
http://g-tedproductions.blogspot.com.au ... d-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
been using mech discs since 2007 and still not sure that I really need them on the road. My canti and caliper braked bikes still stop and start the same as a bike should and with 32 mm tyres you will be able to stop well with any brake if it is adjusted correctly. In really wet day to day and even week to week commuting I do like the lack of rim wear that discs offer.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Calvin27 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:46 am
but that's just me who only washes their bike twice a year, even the MTB (drivetrain gets a lot more love though).
I think part of the problem in the 'do you really need disc' argument is the crossover between disciplines. Roadies ride very different to MTBrs even long after they have switched codes. for example guitar ted in the blog is talking about discs being overkill for even gravel rides. Well that depends on what you'd call a gravel ride. a gravel ride could mean a hard pack flat trail or something more extreme like dirty gran fondo. Big difference but somehow people still use the same term 'graveller'. I'd guess most people would prefer discs for the gran fondo, but most would be happy with even caliper brakes on hard pack.
Me and my mates have 'rain hail or shine ride days' and I can tell you those with rim brakes are constantly bickering when the weather man decides to roll dice. On those days, I can honestly say I do not see any road bikes out there - so my point is, if you don't ride in those conditions, you don't need discs.
The point is whatever a canti/caliper brake can do a disc can too - the reverse is not true.
Disc bikes are now not commanding a significant premium over calipers/canti so if you're buying a new bike wouldn't you rather buy the more capable one?
Anyway, OP is asking between hydro and cable discs so I don't see why the 'do you need disc brakes' needs to come in at all.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby BetterIwas » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:36 pm
I was understating it a bit when I said "damp" - I mean from wet roads to pouring down when I commute (I will be going from a 10k commute to an 18k commute soon). Do not plan to ride in rain but sometimes it happens - probably 10 times last year. If it saves one fall then the extra expense is worth it to my thinking. .
Whilst a variety of views I understand that hydro are generally better but mechanical can be serviced. Think I will go the hydro.
Thanks
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby mikedufty » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:00 pm
Cables are probably better for field repairs and bodging, but mostly the hydro's are OK.
I've had one which has some sort of failure where it builds up pressure if parked in the sun. Needs an 8mm spanner to bleed a little fluid out to release properly.
I've had another where the master cylinder has started to fail, so it would always be a bit soft unless you pumped it at the start of a ride. Still continued working like that for sometime, and when I replaced the lever/master cylinder it only cost as much as a cable lever.
The repairability of a cable only really counts if you carry a spare cable with you. Hydros do seem to fail more gradually. The system in principle is tremendously more reliable than cables. Look at the km cars and motorbikes do on hydro systems with virtually no maintenance. On bikes there is more emphasis on getting the weight down and you seem to lose some of that.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby zero » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:06 pm
I have a set of deore hydros (granted deore is a price/feature group, not a lightweight group) that have required basically bleeding and wetting of the front seals once in 9 years to cure sticking. If I was at say the Mont, I'd be able to fix it between laps but truly would not expect to. The bike does all my offroad riding, offroad racing, and most of my wet commuting - its up to about 35,000 kms.mikedufty wrote:I think the best thing about hydro is they self adjust. The worst thing is they have no manual adjustment, so when the self adjusting goes out of whack you are stuck with it.
Cables are probably better for field repairs and bodging, but mostly the hydro's are OK.
I've had one which has some sort of failure where it builds up pressure if parked in the sun. Needs an 8mm spanner to bleed a little fluid out to release properly.
I've had another where the master cylinder has started to fail, so it would always be a bit soft unless you pumped it at the start of a ride. Still continued working like that for sometime, and when I replaced the lever/master cylinder it only cost as much as a cable lever.
The repairability of a cable only really counts if you carry a spare cable with you. Hydros do seem to fail more gradually. The system in principle is tremendously more reliable than cables. Look at the km cars and motorbikes do on hydro systems with virtually no maintenance. On bikes there is more emphasis on getting the weight down and you seem to lose some of that.
Plenty of people have had cable failures with cable discs, where as I would typically expect my hydro failure mode to be sticking and dragging but still functional. Obviously with lines and calipers of any type, you get what you pay for.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby biker jk » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:36 pm
Thanks for describing your experience. I have been thinking about a disc brake road bike and wondered about the reliability of hydraulic versus cable disc brakes. While I have been on a few rides when somebody broke a gear cable I've never observed a broken brake cable. It's good to know that hydraulic brakes are so reliable.zero wrote:I have a set of deore hydros (granted deore is a price/feature group, not a lightweight group) that have required basically bleeding and wetting of the front seals once in 9 years to cure sticking. If I was at say the Mont, I'd be able to fix it between laps but truly would not expect to. The bike does all my offroad riding, offroad racing, and most of my wet commuting - its up to about 35,000 kms.mikedufty wrote:I think the best thing about hydro is they self adjust. The worst thing is they have no manual adjustment, so when the self adjusting goes out of whack you are stuck with it.
Cables are probably better for field repairs and bodging, but mostly the hydro's are OK.
I've had one which has some sort of failure where it builds up pressure if parked in the sun. Needs an 8mm spanner to bleed a little fluid out to release properly.
I've had another where the master cylinder has started to fail, so it would always be a bit soft unless you pumped it at the start of a ride. Still continued working like that for sometime, and when I replaced the lever/master cylinder it only cost as much as a cable lever.
The repairability of a cable only really counts if you carry a spare cable with you. Hydros do seem to fail more gradually. The system in principle is tremendously more reliable than cables. Look at the km cars and motorbikes do on hydro systems with virtually no maintenance. On bikes there is more emphasis on getting the weight down and you seem to lose some of that.
Plenty of people have had cable failures with cable discs, where as I would typically expect my hydro failure mode to be sticking and dragging but still functional. Obviously with lines and calipers of any type, you get what you pay for.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:21 pm
The benefits of cable over hydro in failure mode though are:
- Can swap caliper easily so that you have at least a front brake
- Can do some diy cable changes (i.e. cut rear cable to fit front)
Generally hydros are reliable enough not to worry about them but cables will work until their very last moment before ultimate failure. Brake heating will cause poor braking with cables but can be catastrophic with hydro. Leaks will end a hydro brake very soon but cables can run even in the worse condition and setup. But having said that, if you're running 5+year old hydros and don't care to test the condition before a race, then either you are not serious enough about racing to warrant concern (i.e. apart from nc, not much impact) or you are taking a risk.
I should probably add to hydro sti shifters are not easy to retrofit with the newer internally cable routed bikes. A hydro line does not fit in the hole!
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby mikedufty » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:33 pm
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby slaw » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:24 am
I replace the pads as needed. I've had a sticky piston maybe three times. Never been bled. Everything, apart from the pads, and including the rotors is original.
Easy to adjust if needed. MUCH easier than V-brakes.
On my MTB I had Hayes hydro which I had to bleed every few months. I replaced them with BB7s when I was going on an OS trip so I'd have fewer maintenance issues. They felt good with quality fully enclosed housings and not too hard to adjust to compensate for pad wear. But one wet muddy race had me adjusting them mid lap as the pads wore down. A team mate had shimano mech brakes and lost all function as the caliper reached the end of its travel. So I've now replaced the BB7s with XT hydros and not had any issues since.
Next roadie will have hydro disc brakes I reckon.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Bentnose » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:03 am
This is basically exactly what I went through except I bought SLX hydro. I remember completely stripping and rebuilding my BB7's after a race when I was stopping every 10 minutes to adjust them, next race I did i had the same issues, needed another rebuild, threw them in the bin and bought hydro, no issues since and much more powerful.slaw wrote:On my MTB I had Hayes hydro which I had to bleed every few months. I replaced them with BB7s when I was going on an OS trip so I'd have fewer maintenance issues. They felt good with quality fully enclosed housings and not too hard to adjust to compensate for pad wear. But one wet muddy race had me adjusting them mid lap as the pads wore down. A team mate had shimano mech brakes and lost all function as the caliper reached the end of its travel. So I've now replaced the BB7s with XT hydros and not had any issues since.
Next roadie will have hydro disc brakes I reckon.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Sharkey » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:31 am
The bike has been rebuilt completely twice in that time. Once it was stripped down, frame sandblasted and powder coated and the other time the rear swing-arm snapped and needed to be repaired. The only original components on the bike are the seat post, handlebars and the brakes. Everything else (fork, shock, derailleurs, wheels etc.) has needed to be replaced and, as mentioned, the frame has had major repairs.
If the rest of the bike was as durable and reliable as the brakes I'd be quite a bit wealthier.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Xplora » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:33 pm
I had Shimano cable discs and the braking is no more useful with or without them.
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Re: Hydraulic v mechanical disc brakes - fat tyres
Postby Bentnose » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:42 pm
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