New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

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davesday
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New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:52 pm

Hi peeps,

I'm new here. Started the sport with a Reid Falco Elite 2014. The Shimano 105 5700 was a great introduction for me into cycling and I like it a lot. However I feel its quite uncomfortable (23c tyres, Alex rims). Now I understand a road bike is never going to be comfy and plushy but I want to try Giant bikes or even Merida. Maybe its an excuse for an upgrade, hey hey! :wink:

My budget is around $1700~ excluding pedals (looking at A530 dual platform pedals). I've shortlisted the following bikes along with some brief notes about them. I'm leaning towards Giant bikes due to good warranty support and mainly because my favourite LBS stocks them plus bike fit. I know the Merida is a good option too (good equipment, carbon fibre) but I'm a little nervous handling a carbon fibre bike. I know that first crash/fall is going to happen sooner or later (trying to on bike shoes soon). I don't have much knowledge on Merida bikes (can't find much reviews) so please share your experience with me. I don't mind stretching the budget to accommodate Scultura 5000 if thats more sensible but I prefer stay around Shimano 105 5800 for that price performance ratio (for my purpose at least).

I want to have your opinion on what is a good/sensible upgrade for my case.

GIANT - TCR SLR 2 2015 - http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-au/bik ... 924/76663/
Traditional race bike/aggressive geometry. I like the aggressive design (aluminium version of the TCR). Component wise its 105 5800 which I read is a significant upgrade to the 5700 I currently have. The brake callipers and crankset however is Shimano non-series 500 family. Nothing wrong with these I read.

GIANT - DEFY 1 2015 - http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-au/bik ... 929/76628/
Sportive and comfortable geometry. I read a lot that this is a more of an endurance bike. The 2015 is a redesign/refresh with shorter seat stays (D-FUSE) which is more compliant. Also 105 5800 but the gearing is different (hills?) and medium cage RD. The brakes are Tektro and crankset is FSA. I believe there's nothing wrong with these except for the brake feel.

MERIDA - SCULTURA 4000 - http://www.99bikes.com.au/bike15-merida ... ack-silver" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MERIDA - SCULTURA 5000 - http://www.99bikes.com.au/bike15-merida ... y-sky-blue" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CKinnard
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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:10 am

The only way to go about this is to take them all for a test ride and see if you notice a difference, esp between carbon and alloy.

The other diff is that the defy and 4000 are more relaxed endurance geometries vs aggressive race geometry of the tcr and 5000.
If you are older with a stiff spine, or get back pain, you might be more comfortable on the less aggressive geometries.

Note also the TCR has higher gearing, with a 36:52 crankset. The defy has lower gearing which would be better for all day rides taking in lots of steeper hills.

When you go do your test rides, take a set of scales, or ask the LBS to weigh them for you. Bikes are priced very much on weight, and you want to know exactly what weight differential qualifies any price gap. You may very well find the Merida carbon bikes are just as heavy as the Giants. Cheap carbon frames are

The other thing to watch out for are wheels. THis is where cheaper bikes compromise most. You could get an idea of differential quality by weighing the front wheel of each.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby rodneycc » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:00 pm

To be honest the first thing I'd be doing is trying 25mm tyres on the Reid Falco. Get some good quality tyres on there like Conti Gp4000s 2 or four seasons or even Schwalbe Durano plus. I'd even be tempted to go a 28mm on the back if it has enough clearance if comfort is your goal.

But if the new bike bug has hit I'd look secondhand for a carbon Giant Defy Advanced 1 with 11 speed Ultegra. It might just squeeze into the budget if you find a cheap one. Don't be scared off Carbon - its pretty damn solid stuff unless you have a full on crash which Alu wouldn't fair any better to be honest. If you are doing a few hills go a compact crank 34/50 and make your life easier (which the Advanced 1 does).

Just an example without really looking or knowing much about you...

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/braddon/ ... 1075600929" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2013 BMC TM SLR01;2013/14 Bianchi Inf CV
2013 Lynskey Helix;2013 XACD Ti Di2
2013 Giant TCR Adv SL1;2014 Giant Defy Adv SL

CKinnard
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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:25 pm

When more a noob myself, I'd have probably also suggested get a used carbon bike. But I've seen at least 5 warranty claims on carbon frames in the last 3 years, including one of my own, and buying a carbon frame without warranty demands a massive price drop.

First, if you have never ridden carbon before and know little about it, you are unlikely to discover a compromised used frame. And a seller isn't likely to tell you all the reasons he's selling it.

Secondly, if the frame is cracked, then you may as well trash it, as the slightest repair is likely to cost $300-400, and new warranted frames are not much more.

You are right to pay a premium for a warranty. Amongst the many riders I know, Giant warranties seem to be the most hassle free.
My warranty claim was with Trek and they played games...and on that basis I'd be reticent to buy another or recommend their bikes. In fact, after extensive comparisons, I think their product is well overpriced compared to Giant and others.

But to reiterate, when comparing these bikes you are interested in, I'd suggest you not buy a Merida carbon if is not at least 300 grams lighter than the relevant Giant alloy. People harp on about carbon being more comfortable than alloy, but it is a very subjective thing and essentially untrue in my view. It really comes down to the geometry, your bodyfat%, and musculoskeletal health. Further most bikes can be made a lot more comfortable purely by running them with lower tire pressure. I'm 82kg and when doing long rides run 23mm tires at 85psi front and 95psi rear, and it's absolutely fine, especially on coarser rural roads.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby CKinnard » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:10 pm

BTW, if you buy a new bike, don't believe it has been put together professionally.
Every bike I have been involved in the purchase of (about 14) has not been properly lubed or torued to specification.
My most recent purchase a week ago was a CX Giant bike.

After the first wash, the head set started creaking. I stripped it down and found there was essentially no grease on the bearings.
The brakes went to crap a few days after getting it, so I took the discs off and re-torqued with loctite, and fine tuned the brakes. The rear brake cable/housing though is still tight and catchy.
The front wheel bearings were too tight and under greased.
The BB bearings are also undergreased.
Though I can say the 6800 105 gears were adjusted very well.

I've also gone over the rest of the bike and lubed and torqued everything to spec.
A mate's bars came loose at the stem when he was out of the saddle on a busy road 2 weeks after buying his bike several years ago. He could very well have gone otb and under a truck.

wgc138
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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby wgc138 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:28 pm

Like the above recommendation, think about new and wider tires. Maybe new wheels as well. Pro Lite a27 would be a good choice.
Falco elite is good enough, if it fits. The geometry on the reid are limited, therefore if you're somewhere in between there isn't any choice from reid i.e., 53cm tt. Anyway, as long as it fits you right, keep it and ride it. The worse thing is to upgrade on a wrongly fitted bike

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby Calvin27 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:25 pm

Giant and merida are practically the same thing. Aimed at the same market with the same value prepositions. Either is fine and they are probably not too different bar sale time when prices change a bit.

As for TCR vs defy. It comes down to whether you want a relaxed geometry or more aggressive. I'll agree with everyone else though that wheels and tyres might be a handy upgrade. You can bring the wheels along to your next bike anyhow - just make sure when you buy its 11sp compatible.
Heavy road bike
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Very cushy dirt bike
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No brakes bike
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davesday
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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:15 pm

Thanks for your valuable advices so far! Sure a lot to consider here.
CKinnard wrote:The only way to go about this is to take them all for a test ride and see if you notice a difference, esp between carbon and alloy.

The other diff is that the defy and 4000 are more relaxed endurance geometries vs aggressive race geometry of the tcr and 5000.

Note also the TCR has higher gearing, with a 36:52 crankset. The defy has lower gearing which would be better for all day rides taking in lots of steeper hills.

When you go do your test rides, take a set of scales, or ask the LBS to weigh them for you. Bikes are priced very much on weight, and you want to know exactly what weight differential qualifies any price gap. You may very well find the Merida carbon bikes are just as heavy as the Giants.
I intent to test ride each of the bikes rather than rushing to a decision. With regards to Scultura 4000 and 5000, don't they share the same frame and only differentiated by component levels? I had thought the Ride series would be endurance types.

My current Falco Elite has 36:52 crankset and I'm quite comfortable with the gearing so far. Granted most of my rides are on a flat path with minimal elevations.

And you're right with the weights. The Scultura 5000 is ~8.6kg according to this review Merida Scultura 5000 - First Impressions. Quite heavy for a carbon bike in my opinion. I have a feeling the TCR SLR could be similar in weight. The reason Scultura came into the picture is the Ultegra components at those price points. Of course components aren't everything. Still worthy for the comparison. I kinda like the TCR for some reason and wishes to know more from any owners.
rodneycc wrote:To be honest the first thing I'd be doing is trying 25mm tyres on the Reid Falco. Get some good quality tyres on there like Conti Gp4000s 2 or four seasons or even Schwalbe Durano plus. I'd even be tempted to go a 28mm on the back if it has enough clearance if comfort is your goal.
Yes an upgrade was also considered. I believe the most obvious upgrade path would be Mavic wheels and 25c tyres. But I also considered retaining this bike for commuting. My office is moving soon (in 3 months) - estimated riding time 15-20minutes. Definitely beats taking an old MTB.

I have zero experience purchasing 2nd bikes. Just can't justify spending $1500 on something I can't be sure about the background of a product. I guess its all about the confidence. For now I'd prefer to go brand new. Its also about the piece of mind. My LBS stocks Giants and I'm very comfortable dealing with them. And of course hearing from everyone here about the good product warranty offered by Giant.
Calvin27 wrote:As for TCR vs defy. It comes down to whether you want a relaxed geometry or more aggressive. I'll agree with everyone else though that wheels and tyres might be a handy upgrade. You can bring the wheels along to your next bike anyhow - just make sure when you buy its 11sp compatible.
I guess it boils down to that - geometry. I would be better off trying the 2 bikes and decide. I don't have back problems (relatively young here) and I kinda like an aggressive sitting. However I've never gone >20km rides before so that may change the picture a bit.

What about product roadmaps? The Defy is newly redesigned in 2015 so that frame would probably stays the same for now. Would the TCR alu version stay for long? I read about higher end TCRs reaching a new design by Q3 of this year, would that trickle down to the alu version?

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby 2wheels_mond » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:45 pm

The reality is that bikes at the lower end, certainly in terms of frames, don't change much at all. Fundamentally, Giant's alloy TCR frame has changed little since around 2000, when it was the ONCE team frame, once they changed to a compact frame geometry (sloping top tube) and a threadless fork. The geometry has changed very, very little, and even weight is more or less the same. All that really changes is the componentry on it, whatever generation Shimano are up to, whatever generic finishing kit Giant is using at the time, etc.

The only real redesign that may come is disc brakes, but I wouldn't hold your breath for it, and almost certainly not any time soon on the aluminium TCRs.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:49 pm

2wheels_mond wrote:The reality is that bikes at the lower end, certainly in terms of frames, don't change much at all. Fundamentally, Giant's alloy TCR frame has changed little since around 2000, when it was the ONCE team frame, once they changed to a compact frame geometry (sloping top tube) and a threadless fork. The geometry has changed very, very little, and even weight is more or less the same. All that really changes is the componentry on it, whatever generation Shimano are up to, whatever generic finishing kit Giant is using at the time, etc.

The only real redesign that may come is disc brakes, but I wouldn't hold your breath for it, and almost certainly not any time soon on the aluminium TCRs.
Nah, I wouldn't hope for a disc brake on the kit at my kind of budget. I do know they were new for 2015 carbon Defy. The alu-version stuck with dual pivots. Frankly speaking my current bike's brake (which are dual pivot 105 5700) are pretty good. I do have a MTB with hydro discs and do appreciate the advantage it offers. But they are overkill for me.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby 2wheels_mond » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:06 pm

I should say, I don't want to sound snobbish when I say lower end - the Giant TCR Once frames are considered some of the best alloy frames made, and the current model is essentially a continuation of those. Rim brakes are fantastic. I dare say whatever you choose to spend your money on, you'll be a happy man.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:16 pm

No worries mate! :-)

I'm looking forward to testing out new rides in the coming weeks. I'll update everyone here as I progress.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu May 07, 2015 2:57 pm

Guys, I'm finally ready to get one of the bikes this weekend! During my testing and research the Fujis came into consideration as well (Sportif & Roubaix).

Unfortunately I just checked with my LBS and they no longer have the TCR SLR 2 - bummer! It looks like it is end of the season and they only stock the Defy 1 for now. Does that mean this is a bad time to get a bike? I was told the first wave of 2016 models are probably advanced variants while the recreational ones would be sometime later.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby macca33 » Thu May 07, 2015 4:16 pm

I don't think that the Defy will hamper your cycling goals in any manner whatsoever. I had one (2009 Aluxx frame) which I used to be able to pedal fairly quickly, but do admit it wasn't as sharp/quick handling as my CAAD10s - nor was it supposed to be. It was sublimely comfortable, however, and the relaxed geometry was great for the longer / all day rides - which you seem to wish to do.

In saying all that, remember that your choice is only limited by you - if a shop doesn't stock what you are looking for, go elsewhere, or tell them to look for what you desire.

cheers
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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu May 07, 2015 5:57 pm

Come to think of it, I don't think I'm pro enough to require/tell sharp and quick handling. I just want a good platform to grow on. I'm coming from a Reid Falco Elite here.

I have set my eye on the Defy 1 but haven't get to test it yet. I did test the TCR SLR from a mate and it was good. Anyway LBS has the Defy 1 in stock so lets see how it goes. I'll be testing the Fujis and Avantis too. Its going to be a long and enjoyable weekend ;-)

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby Duck! » Thu May 07, 2015 7:57 pm

davesday wrote: I was told the first wave of 2016 models are probably advanced variants while the recreational ones would be sometime later.
Nope, other way around. The recreational models are early release (I'm in a shop that deals with Giant; we actually just got details of the first-drop models this week), with the "performance" models later, typically around August. The only Defy model on the early release list is an entry-level Defy 4.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu May 07, 2015 10:17 pm

Right, I must have misread the info on web.

I went through all the Defy models from 2010 till present. One year it goes through a new frame design and then the preceding year it receives new paint job with similar components. Some year it gets a component bump, etc. Is this right?

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby Duck! » Thu May 07, 2015 10:52 pm

The last couple of frame generations have had a three year production run, but prior to '09 they were a two-year run, during the course of which only the paint changes.

Shimano's groupsets are produced over a four or five year run, with new versions of each series coming in on a "trickle-down" basis each year; e.g the current Dura-Ace series was introduced for 2013 model year, Ultegra followed for '14, 105 for '15, this year Tiagra gets an update, next year it's Sora's turn. As such, groupset updates don't always align with frame updates.

So yeah, sometimes the only difference from one year to the next is in the paint job & maybe some minor components (less so now that Giant produce their own-branded "finishing kits"; in the past it depended on which component manufacturer they struck a deal with for a given year). Occasionally they "move" the model numbers for a given spec level, leaving a gap in the sequence which may be for an additional overseas model that we don't get, or a mid-season addition.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Thu May 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Thanks Duck for the insights.

In this case, 2015 Defy 1 'coincidentally' received an upgrade to the 105 and a new tweaked frame. ;-)

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby Duck! » Thu May 07, 2015 11:04 pm

Basically. So this coming year's version will not be a great deal different; the Defy 2 is the one that gets a groupset update this year.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Fri May 08, 2015 11:18 pm

Hi peeps, proof that one can never research enough. What about Defy 1 2015 (105) vs Defy Advanced 3 2015 (Tiagra).

Defy 1
+ New 105-5800
+ New frame (D-fuse, Power Core, Overdrive, etc)
+ Weigh 8.85kg
- Not as smooth as carbon?

Defy Advanced 3
+ New carbon frame (new materials)
+ Road disc
+ Weigh ~9kg
- Old Tiagra groupset 4600 (very sure 2016 model will feature 4700)
- Meh paint job

Done plenty of reading on similar subjects (105 Alu vs Tiagra Carbon). 90% of the responses go for 'getting the foundation/basics right' - carbon frame. Then upgrade the parts later. Mostly say the Tiagra still (due to its external cabling) offers light action shifting. I'm not too fussed about 4600 vs 4700 because either way I'm sure I would eventually upgrade those out. I'm more concerned on consistency and shifting quality. Either way I'm going to test them out.

Therefore would the Defy Advanced 3 presents itself as the better value option?

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby nickobec » Sat May 09, 2015 12:10 am

A few opinions

I prefer to ride and race my alloy Canyon Ultimate 8 over my CF Fuji SL

If I had to buy a new bike now it would be a Giant TCR SLR, best bangs for bucks in my opinions

I am 10 speed through and through race bike, TT bike, training bike and soon commuter. But if I was buying new now 11 speed only, forget 10 speed , forget Tiagra.

ps SRAM fan, you should try SRAM and Campagnolo 11 speed offerings (ps I am in the SRAM camp, will use Shimano, dislike Campagnolo)

Hope that is some help, Nick

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby lardass71 » Sat May 09, 2015 10:53 am

CKinnard wrote:BTW, if you buy a new bike, don't believe it has been put together professionally.
Every bike I have been involved in the purchase of (about 14) has not been properly lubed or torued to specification.
My most recent purchase a week ago was a CX Giant bike.

After the first wash, the head set started creaking. I stripped it down and found there was essentially no grease on the bearings.
The brakes went to crap a few days after getting it, so I took the discs off and re-torqued with loctite, and fine tuned the brakes. The rear brake cable/housing though is still tight and catchy.
The front wheel bearings were too tight and under greased.
The BB bearings are also undergreased.
Though I can say the 6800 105 gears were adjusted very well.

I've also gone over the rest of the bike and lubed and torqued everything to spec.
A mate's bars came loose at the stem when he was out of the saddle on a busy road 2 weeks after buying his bike several years ago. He could very well have gone otb and under a truck.
you are aware that most bearings in bikes hse days are sealed units, so the bearing has the grease inside the sealed unit, and normally your first service should look at all the re tensioning of headsets and all that, but its also up to you to make sure they do it, most shops these days are useless to start with and only care about getting you and the bike out the door and your money in there pocket
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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby davesday » Sat May 09, 2015 10:31 pm

Phew what a long day. Tested so many road bikes this morning and in the end I short listed 2 bikes - Defy 1 and Defy Advanced 2. LBS didn't have Defy Advanced 2 so I had to test the 3 (with Tiagra).

Defy 1
It was super light for an alloy bike, thats all I can say. Got to agree with some of the reviews I have read, its well engineered. Very nice paintwork. The 105-5800 shifting was heaps better and lighter than my 105-5700. Shifting the front chainring was instantaneous and no signs of grinding/hesitation. I was actually quite surprise it paired well with the FSA Gossamer Pro. The front derailleur doesn't make loud bang noises when shifting down so that a tick. I can feel the stiffness and the efficiency when pedalling. It just transfers all of that into forward motion. Compliance wise its definitely more comfortable and less harsh, but not by a large margin.

Defy Advanced 2 (but tested the 3)
LBS didn't have the 2 in stock but they let me test the 3. I thought the 105 components would be the same so I just wanted a feel of carbon frames. One word - smooth! On the get go, it just flies. Fly is not the right word but it just move even with light pedalling. Its definitely very plushy and feels well put together. Feels kinda like on a MTB with low pressure tyres BUT without the weight. The road condition was pretty bad with potholes and the frame just dampens the shock. I believe the wider wheel helps a lot too.The disc brake is very nice but is spongy. I really like the shape of the frame. Frankly speaking the Tiagra was faultless. Its not as light action as the new 105 but it just works. However I must say the front shifting wasn't that great. Sometimes I pulled enough for an instant shift, sometimes not enough causing the chain to grind the cage/large chainring.

Decision
I struggled a lot here. Was back and forth with the decision. Head says Defy 1, heart wanted the Advanced 2. I was ready to spend the money but in the end I decided to go with the financially sensible option - Defy 1 2015. Its still a 'comfy bike' but I reckoned some of that 'carbon plushiness' can be replicated with better/wider tyres (28?), optimising the air pressure (the Defy 1 seems to be >100psi, its really hard when pinched) and a future wheel upgrade. I may be wrong but we'll see.

I'll post some more feedbacks and pictures of the Defy 1 later. I did a 20km run this evening and there's a small issue. Squeaking steering - insufficient grease?

Also the upper jockey seems to be catching on the large cog when moving the chain backwards (B-tension?). I tried pushing the rear derailleur away and it seems that I have to push it way back to alleviate the problem. However this only happens when moving the chain backwards and its normal when pedalling forward. At its current tuning, the upper jockey position is just clear of the large cog (the optimum I would say). I know nobody pedals backward but any thoughts?

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Re: New road bike (TCR SLR 2 vs Defy 1, which one?!)

Postby Duck! » Sun May 10, 2015 12:41 am

davesday wrote: I did a 20km run this evening and there's a small issue. Squeaking steering - insufficient grease?
That's the customary FSA headset sqeak. There's a rubber seal under the conical outer bearing cover above the headset, and it's very common for it to squeak as it rubs on the rim of the headtube. Happens to nearly all of them.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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