Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

[lardass71]

how heavy are you? and have the wheels been laced to torque settings? is the tape measure photo your photo? do you have one of where you tied the string to the rear drop outs, clearly there is an issue, the bike shop pictures are not the best s the block isnt square in the second one to the string line, and they dont have to bow to your demands of how to check it, if it complies with the manufacturers specs and the way they instruct the shop to check it, then theres not a thing you can do

[battler2]

83kg usually, use these wheels all the time on other bikes. never had a problem like this. they're commercially built wheels that have required infrequent truing adjustments (have had this done once by a pro in bormio, italy). again, i know the difference between instability resulting from slightly out of true wheels to the kind of sliding around at higher speeds and inability to lean. assuming this is where you're going with asking for my weight.

yes they don't have to bow to my demands, but i sent the frame back (at my expense) after they requested it. you would think they would provide accurate measurements before demanding payment to send it back.

manufacturers specs have never been mentioned. what are they? what's to stop them saying even a 5mm discrepancy is acceptable? despite the fact that it's clearly not safe to ride.

this is where consumer law chimes in, and i really don't want to go that route. here's hoping someone at lynskey will realise this could potentially be bad press for them and ask for proper measurements.

ill provide a photo of where i tied it (around the dropouts, exiting centrally), but i dont think that is the problem here. it would make a slight difference, but all i intended to demonstrate was that there was a discrepancy.

[Blakeylonger]

manufacturers specs have never been mentioned. what are they? what's to stop them saying even a 5mm discrepancy is acceptable?

frames can be a long way out of alignment (out of plane laterally and torsionally) and still ride just fine.

despite the fact that it's clearly not safe to ride.

that's just like, your opinion man. in all your testing, did you get someone else to ride it?

[lardass71]

manufacturers specs have never been mentioned. what are they? what's to stop them saying even a 5mm discrepancy is acceptable? despite the fact that it's clearly not safe to ride.

this is where consumer law chimes in, and i really don't want to go that route. here's hoping someone at lynskey will realise this could potentially be bad press for them and ask for proper measurements.

ill provide a photo of where i tied it (around the dropouts, exiting centrally), but i dont think that is the problem here. it would make a slight difference, but all i intended to demonstrate was that there was a discrepancy.

somewhere there must be manufacturing specs, with limits on what can be out and by how much. The tolerances for each section of the frame, im really thinking that its not a lynskey problem, i honestly cant see them releasing a frame for use that does not meet there quality control. the legal crap fight if they did and you were injured would be a major crap fest. One of my first questions would be if purchased from lynskey, why is it not in one of there boxes? could be courier company or even the bike shop at fault, but something is definitely smelly here

[battler2]

yes, this is why i am annoyed and will need to get to the bottom of it. if it's been crushed in transit from US to bike shop it's the bike shop being dishonest (but i don't like it that lynskey is backing them up).

i want to get an expert builder (baum?) to check the welds. but how much that will cost i don't know.

surprised that the shop doesn't seem remotely give a toss about their reputation, but it happens.

the box that they sent the frame to me had no signs of being crushed otherwise i would've refused delivery. i used the same box to send it back (and same packing).

[battler2]

frames can be a long way out of alignment (out of plane laterally and torsionally) and still ride just fine.

that's just like, your opinion man. in all your testing, did you get someone else to ride it?

the first comment is just like, your opinion man. care to prove this?

sorry but i'm not going to hand over a bike i know is unstable to someone to risk hurting themselves, how stupid would that be?

[biker jk]

I'm still a little puzzled as to why you didn't measure the width at the drop outs when the wheel didn't fit. If I had a new frame and couldn't get the wheel in without "spreading" the frame the first thing I would do is measure the width at the drop outs.

[defy1]

Long story, and its on roadbikereview if you’re really curious.
- First descent hill climb, bike felt all over the place >35km/h, had to ride brakes to get down safely. Actually stopped mid way down to check wheels and pressure.

- Same problem on flats, almost crashed in roundabout, bike just wouldn’t lean to one side. Couldn’t climb out of saddle even for a sprint.

I would be interested going back to the symptoms of the problem to get more information, can you elaborate a bit more on the above two points?
what do you mean by "can't lean on one side"? and "felt all over the place at 35kmh"? why couldn't you climb our of the saddle?

[RonK]

this is where consumer law chimes in, and i really don't want to go that route.

I can understand that - so far the shop has presented to be very credible.

here's hoping someone at lynskey will realise this could potentially be bad press for them.

Yes, I though that was the tactic behind posting it on multiple sites.

[Drizt]

Having to squish the wheel into the drop outs signifies something is wrong. Did the shop try to put a wheel in?

I know this doesn't help you now (and I'm not having a go) but there is no way I would have sent the frame back without having someone else verify the issues first. Even if you paid an LBS $50 to look it over it would have saved some hassles. Once the frame is sent it is hard for you to refute what they are saying.

Sorry to hear about the issues. I'd be pissed if my bikes had those issues. And I have bought two Lynskeys from that shop.

[outnabike]

frames can be a long way out of alignment (out of plane laterally and torsionally) and still ride just fine.

that's just like, your opinion man. in all your testing, did you get someone else to ride it?

the first comment is just like, your opinion man. care to prove this?

sorry but I'm not going to hand over a bike i know is unstable to someone to risk hurting themselves, how stupid would that be?

Hi battler2,
It is pretty crook when our aspirations get shattered with such a purchase, Just one question though,and I may have missed this point.
Have you tried out another wheel set that is is not allegedly dished, to test the theory?
It just seems to me , and I know nothing, that they can say what they want and nothing can be challenged. I also put forward the thought that the standards in Australia are maybe lower due to their expertise out here.
I would almost be prepared to wear the costs of sending the thing to an independent engineer to get it examined. If that is good money after bad, please disregard.
Also, let a good rider have a go at it for an opinion , maybe the blokes that test for certain mags and make a story out of the results good or bad. I reckon any one that reads your problem will now want a resolution before ordering that very desirable bike.

[battler2]

i didn't try another wheelset primarily because i don't have any problem with these wheels on my two other bikes. i also wasn't willing to buy a new wheelset just to test a theory with no basis. i mean, should i have tried a different seapost as well? i need setback seatposts for long femurs. how about handlebar width? stem length? tyres? i know the difference between more responsive steering and tyre grip. it's something that a LBS would make you do just to avoid taking responsibility and warrantying a frame, and generally just jerk you around.

i also definitely don't have any wheels that aren't dished and trued correctly (other wheels are 10sp).

one solution, that i can see, is to deliberately build up a set of wheels that AREN'T dished correctly, and in fact, sway to the side to compensate for frame misalignment. this is however, bs, and i shouldn't have to do this. whether i can get it off center far enough is another question.

i will be considering the other options, including driving to VIC to sort this out. yes, i am that peeved.

i can't risk someones wellbeing over this, for many legal reasons as well. the same reason why i am seriously concerned about this bike shop not checking framesets before building, or selling frames, as they appear to have done to me.

Having to squish the wheel into the drop outs signifies something is wrong. Did the shop try to put a wheel in?

I know this doesn't help you now (and I'm not having a go) but there is no way I would have sent the frame back without having someone else verify the issues first. Even if you paid an LBS $50 to look it over it would have saved some hassles. Once the frame is sent it is hard for you to refute what they are saying.

Sorry to hear about the issues. I'd be pissed if my bikes had those issues. And I have bought two Lynskeys from that shop.

and yes, this is a sincere regret now, because the crude method i used to provide some measurements to help the LBS out in good faith were used against me. however, even if i had provided a photo for example, of the frame out of alignment with a gauge, there's nothing to stop him manipulating this some other way to again refuse warranty. eg. claiming i crashed the bike, ran over a pothole or whatever. i think the problem isn't with my measurements, but the dishonesty of the LBS (including ignoring my followup email to see how it was going).

I can understand that - so far the shop has presented to be very credible.

oh please, don't make me laugh.

[thecaptn]

surprised that the shop doesn't seem remotely give a toss about their reputation, but it happens.

They've pretty much got the market cornered.

I've found in situations like this that if keep your cool, stick to your guns and make it quite clear that you're not going to go away they'll eventually come to the party. If I was in your situation and found that it was starting to drag out I'd tell them to forget about the warranty and just give me my money back. If there's nothing wrong with the product the shop can easily build up the frame and recoup their money, if it is damaged/faulty they'l be more likely to lean on the supplier for a replacement. Either way you'l end up compensated, it's how much time and effort it takes that counts. I wouldn't muck arround with having the frame checked by anyone else, if you recon it's stuffed then it's stuffed.

[AUbicycles]

Lets just tackle customer frustration - as a customer, the most effective way is patience and keeping your cool. People (i.e. the shop) will not be encouraged to support or help find a positive solution when it becomes bitter. It will be hard to keep it polite and simple... but it will be more effective. I seriously seriously doubt that Lynsky would have any ulterior motivations to knowingly confirm that a frame is fine when it is not. They want their frames to be good and would want to resolve the issue. You do need to be careful about the assumptions because it can make it harder to resolve.


Judging from the feedback - and simplifying this as far as possible - the problem at hand is to verify if there is a frame alignment problem.

What needs to now happen? From the original post the shop replied that they did a quick measurement but intended to take it to a friends shop to properly test. When did this happen or when will it happen. If it has happened, are you expecting more photos? If it hasn't happened, can they measure the distance between the dropouts.

One this step is complete - whether the response is that the frame alignment is correct or has a problem, it is verification and take out unclarity and let you decide on the next step - which would be a recognised independent frame maker to confirm.

[thecaptn]

It's a pity you live in SA or you could've chucked a brick through his window.

[Storm Boy]

Double post.

[Storm Boy]

a recognised independent frame maker to confirm.

^^^ Definitely this.

[battler2]

i think i've said this before, but i'm considering this as an option, however there's no guarantee that even after i do this that the shop will accept the warranty claim. i would effectively have to take the frame away from him, be it via postage or in person, and once it leaves his care it opens up more possibilities. so it'll end up in the courts anyway.

the cost could be prohibitive as well. what's to say a frame builder won't charge me hundreds? all of a sudden that entry level Ti frame is going to cost as much as a higher end one.

i think he knows all this, hence the dishonesty. he doesn't give a toss, it's just about screwing the customer. the reality is, satisfy 99% of customers, screw a few and there's still enough positive reports to drown out the negatives. he's probably got an alignment gauge in his workshop. or he did in fact use a measuring tape before he took the dodgy photos.

the biggest problem i have is that he said he was just about to do this, but is now relying on his methods of string measurements with no metric results. i've asked this question and received no answer.

[Drizt]

Demand a full refund.

[AUbicycles]

battler2, you have programmed yourself into negativity and already are assuming the worst scenario.... and this is what it will become.

I accept that we made not have all of the information, but anticipating the worst (and letting this affect your emotions and communication) will probably make it harder and more painful.

So flip it around.. what is the best case scenario and how can you work towards this from where it is now. The journey may change but you will be open to new impulses, for example someone made a genuine mistake, or there is an honest oversight in your setup. Who knows, but you have to take yourself out of the role of the 'victim'.



(sorry for sounding like such an evangelist, would love to hear of a positive ending)

[battler2]

if there's a mistake in my measurements, i'll pay the postage to return the frame to me and apologise.

at this stage i think i will wait until the replacement comes for Don@Lynskey, the sales manager that i was dealing with (who is apparently leaving the company by the end of the week). i hope his replacement might be politely convinced to request proper measurements from the bike shop. i think that's the best next step, because yes, i have been ticked off over this.

[danny the boy]

Did you measure any of the chain stays, seat stays? A photo with a wheel in would of been good to. The rear view photo of the frame does look a bit off but it could be the angle of the photo.

[tallywhacker]

there also seems to be a fairly large gap between the string line and the "plain" of the left dropout in the first picture

[cage]

That's what I thought at first to but looking at the other side, I reckon there's a gap there to...which makes sense I guess seeing as the string is angled in towards the headtube.

What I don't get, is why would the shop rummage around to find some thing to fit in between the string & seat tube and use that as there measurement guide as opposed to just using one of the most basic of all tools, & one that you would think they'd have, a tape measure?

[Rex]

I have a carbon bike and my NDS carbon dropout is not aligned with my DS dropout due to many wheel changes with threaded shimano hubs.
Result = misaligned rear wheel. Between tyre and NDS chainstay I have 1mm and between tyre and DS chainstay I have about 7mm.
Therefore my rear wheel is not aligned with my front wheel.

Does it affect my ride? Not one single bit. I can't tell the difference.