Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

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cyclotaur
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby cyclotaur » Fri May 29, 2015 8:58 am

Unfortunately for the OP I think you have made too many procedural mistakes already. Additionally you claim frame is defective, and others (notably LBS) disagree. That seems to be the critical issue here.

Firstly, if I was buying only a frame I would also try to deal direct with Lynskey rather than the LBS, as suggested above, and I'm in Melbourne.

Secondly, I was to buy through LBS I would probably have made a quick trip to Melbourne to inspect and collect the frame personally. Even a cheaper Lynskey frame is a big enough investment to make this worthwhile from Adelaide.

Thirdly, I would not have left it so long to inspect the frame and/or build it up, bearing in mind Lynskey's 45 day return policy.

Nevertheless, in your situation now I would either pay for the frame to be sent back or, preferably, go collect it in person. A face to face encounter with the LBS might just help sort things out.

I've not bought anything through the shop but I know several guys who have, and are happy and satisfied with the result. I've been in there a few times myself and found them most helpful.

At some point I think you'll need to talk directly to them to approach a reasonable solution.

FWIW, weather in Melbourne is sunny and mild today and we're headed for a dry and mild winter. [emoji6]
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Drizt
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby Drizt » Fri May 29, 2015 9:00 am

They are easy to deal with face to face. Via email, it's painful.

thecaptn
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby thecaptn » Fri May 29, 2015 9:38 am

Australian Consumer Law is heavily weighted in favour of the consumer and a VCAT small claims hearing is unlikely to find in favour of the shop because it'd be difficult to prove a case one way or the other. The shop will know this and wont want to waste time and money on a defence at the expense of their reputation.

The reason for using Email is to provide a record of corespondence.

Like I said in an earlier post, if there's nothing wrong with the frame the shop can easily build it up and sell it again.

battler2
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby battler2 » Fri May 29, 2015 11:31 am

thecaptn is pretty much on the money for the route that i hope i don't have to take, but in reality likely will. this has been my thought process all along, and most consumers don't actually realise how well protected we are in this country (this is why i bought it locally and not off c r c or lynskey direct), but there's steps to take well before it gets to that.

what i do in my personal life is also preventing me from jumping in the car and having a spontaneous holiday in VIC so i will give them ample opportunity to resolve this with regular attempts to contact (registered post etc.)

i'll draft an email to lynskey sales again (someone else) and see if anything happens.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby zed » Fri May 29, 2015 4:39 pm

biker jk wrote:
thecaptn wrote:Updates?
Go read his thread on roadbikereview.com. Seems a few are not buying his story.
I've ridden plenty of bikes with badly buckled wheels, mostly BMX & MTB, but also a few road bikes and none have ridden as badly as the OP described, certainly not leaning to one side, so I'd imagine that his frame is bent/twisted as opposed to a damaged wheel or a wheel that hasn't been fitted properly. The photos demonstrating the width discrepancy are confusing, but the OP doesn't come across as a complete moron so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

What about suggesting that they stick some wheels on and take it for a spin themselves? Irrespectively if there is an issue with the frame you'll get your money back or a replacement frame, but it sounds like you might have to go through a certain amount of bullsh!t to get there. When you contact the LBS/Lynskey (forget who has your frame) can you CC in multiple people i.e managers, owners etc this would normally ensure emails are replied to. Send it to one numpty and easier for them to ignore it.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby AUbicycles » Fri May 29, 2015 11:03 pm

I am still interested in a response to an earlier question. I understand that the person you communicated with measured the frame... but intended to take it to a friend with a jig to do it properly.

Have I understood this correctly... and did this happen?

If not, why not? At this stage it would be a pretty important for this to happen because the shop at least can verify before you then take the next step. They can also provide clearer photos and provide the dimensions.
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battler2
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby battler2 » Sat May 30, 2015 10:18 am

that's not going to happen for a few reasons you can imagine (and the motivation is clear). if lynskey backs him on his 'measurements' he thinks he doesn't need to do this. even if i go into the shop with the park tool, he'll still refuse warranty because lynskey have backed him.

i've sent an email to a sales/cust service person at lynskey and cc to the general manager. 1 business day has passed (friday) so i need to give it more time, but its likely they will ignore that too.

interestingly, the plant manager, and one of the founders of lynskey was cc'd in on when don forwarded my email to him, so they definitely know about it, even at the highest level.

next step is a few letters to the bike shop then consumer affairs. most people are right, i'll need to get the frame back, but i might as well do it on a trip to vic with a VCAT hearing date set.

EDIT: I'll also mention that the frame builder 'friend' is also the same manufacturer of another thread in this forum where catastrophic failure of a custom steel frame with no penetration at the welds resulted. You can see why I have no confidence in this.
Last edited by battler2 on Sat May 30, 2015 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tez001
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby tez001 » Sat May 30, 2015 12:41 pm

If your going to go to VCAT wouldn't it be better to have the frame measured by a professional on a bench and then if it is conclusive it is bent, claim back for travel costs, workshop costs etc?

I don't know how far it will go with one set of measurements from you showing its off and one from the shop showing a ok.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby battler2 » Sat May 30, 2015 1:08 pm

and it will be done, well before the VCAT hearing. probably need to do it even before scheduling it. i'll work out the details later as that's at least a few months away. what i can actually claim and whether i'm likely to win all needs to be considered as well.

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Ross
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby Ross » Sat May 30, 2015 4:09 pm

Just out of curiosity, what's the frame worth?

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby AUbicycles » Sun May 31, 2015 4:45 pm

If the original mechanic has noted that it will no longer be remeasured as originally said, or is refusing, then it will back your case.

You could then get it back - keep the shipping invoice because technically if the frame it defect, this will be returned, and will now also let you get it measured up independently.
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby thecaptn » Sun May 31, 2015 5:35 pm

Ross wrote:Just out of curiosity, what's the frame worth?
About $5

battler2
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby battler2 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:46 pm

quick update as i got a more promising email from the new sales manager (apparently, as linkedin indicated he's been working there a while as GM, possibly taken over two positions now), basically saying it's been going on for longer than he and i would like to see. he's going to catchup on emails (forwarded all correspondence to him) and is going to sit down with one of the owners, basically one of the members of the family lynskey.

i see the words "we want you to be taken care of" so you are "happy" etc. it's promising but i won't get my hopes up just yet (the problem is, i noticed that initially the emails were forwarded to the same lynskey family member when i first emailed lynskey support, so they are definitely aware of it). that was just last week so i'll give it a full 2 weeks before checking back to see whats going on. it's possible there's some exchange of emails going on with the bike shop.

i'll refrain from posting this update on the other forum as they probably know about that thread more than they are likely to know about this one.

in the mean time i noticed (based on my social media searches) the guy i was speaking to before (Don) is now working as a used car salesman. not surprising :P

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby thecaptn » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:19 am

I would think that Lynskey as well as "the anonymous bike shop" would be well aware of this thread. I also think that you'll get a new frame.

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jules21
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby jules21 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:54 pm

biker jk wrote:
Rex wrote:I have a carbon bike and my NDS carbon dropout is not aligned with my DS dropout due to many wheel changes with threaded shimano hubs.
Result = misaligned rear wheel. Between tyre and NDS chainstay I have 1mm and between tyre and DS chainstay I have about 7mm.
Therefore my rear wheel is not aligned with my front wheel.

Does it affect my ride? Not one single bit. I can't tell the difference.
I concur. My wet weather bike (cheap alloy frame) has never had the rear wheel correctly aligned (it's angled) and the bike rides fine. I've descended Mont Ventoux on that bike with no problem.
+ 2

i've had problems with a rear wheel that I've re-laced and gotten the dish a bit wrong. the front and rear wheels aren't aligned. doesn't seem to make any difference to handling. I've raced on it, ride no hands, put it through hard cornering.

it's hard to believe a few mm of wheel misalignment has caused the bike to become unrideable. you may be focusing on entirely the wrong cause.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby battler2 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:31 pm

if you haven't had any problems with a slightly out of dish wheel (despite this and other reasons behind major causes of instability) then as lynskey suggested to get my rear wheel dishing checked (and providing evidence of perfect dishing) what else could be the problem?

the only other cause i've been suggested (and probably because the bike shop is hocking his bike fitting services) is saddle setback, which i ride on all my bikes and don't have this kind of instability. it's an option for lynskey bikes, and even on bike exchange the bike shop sells lynskey bikes with a setback seat post.

i think some people on the forums i've posted on all look to be suggesting that it's something else, when there's evidence right in front of their faces :/

it's more than a few mm, it's well above what i've heard another manufacturer belives is 'within tolerance', and that's only measuring at the seatpost, which is about half way from the headtube. would love to know what it is at the dropouts.

oh wait. that still hasn't happened.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby jules21 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:41 pm

as I understand it, you are concerned that rear triangle misalignment is laterally misaligning your rear wheel. this is the exact same thing as what incorrect wheel dish would do. physics doesn't care what the cause is.

it's strange that I and others haven't noticed the same handling deficiencies associated with what appears to be the same geometrical symptom.

I would be curious for you to put a stringline along the wheels and measure just how far out the front and rear are, laterally.

I'm not denying your experience of a poor handling bike. but I fear that you have seized upon an explanation and are trying to justify that, rather than a more scientific approach which would be to prove it by attempting to disprove it.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby battler2 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:02 pm

you and a few others? again, wheel dishing is one of the major symptoms of instability for the very reason i am going through all of this. your experiences with your frames is completely different to another. the frame i ride now is also probably slightly out of alignment (i measured that too), but it doesn't give me any trouble. at what point when a frame is well out alignment does it become a problem? 3mm? 5mm? 10mm? look at the contact surface area (width particularly) of a road tyre and tell me if it shouldn't make a difference.

by your logic QC shouldn't need to exist because we could all well be riding misaligned frames and have ZERO issues.

stringline along the wheels? why bother when theres a tool out there do measure this alignment. i'd love to do it now but the bike shop request the frame back so i sent it. want to pay the $50-60 to get it back to me? i don't either.

i disproved every other possible cause and this is all that remains. you still haven't suggested something else specifically, you're just trolling now.

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jules21
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby jules21 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:06 pm

i'm not trolling I'm genuinely interested in your problem. but you appear to be looking for support, rather than discussing the issue objectively. I hope you resolve it. i'm just not certain that the problem is precisely as you describe it. I'm not saying it isn't either.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby Jesmol » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:18 pm

jules21 wrote:as I understand it, you are concerned that rear triangle misalignment is laterally misaligning your rear wheel. this is the exact same thing as what incorrect wheel dish would do. physics doesn't care what the cause is.

it's strange that I and others haven't noticed the same handling deficiencies associated with what appears to be the same geometrical symptom.

I would be curious for you to put a stringline along the wheels and measure just how far out the front and rear are, laterally.

I'm not denying your experience of a poor handling bike. but I fear that you have seized upon an explanation and are trying to justify that, rather than a more scientific approach which would be to prove it by attempting to disprove it.
Wouldn't it also put the rear axle on an angle relative to the path of travel (all be it small), given the gyro effect of a wheel being quite significant, the effect of it being kicked over on an angle would really be quite different to just moving the rotation axis laterally.

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cyclotaur
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby cyclotaur » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:23 pm

I'm also intrigued by this - :?: has anyone else taken a spin on the bike and felt the same thing?
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Drizt
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby Drizt » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:28 pm

cyclotaur wrote:I'm also intrigued by this - :?: has anyone else taken a spin on the bike and felt the same thing?
This!

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby jules21 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:35 pm

Jesmol wrote:Wouldn't it also put the rear axle on an angle relative to the path of travel
not necessarily. the rear wheel can be misaligned laterally, but still pointing straight ahead.

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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby thecaptn » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:37 pm

battler2 wrote: you're just trolling now.
jules21 wouldn't troll, it's not his style.

As I understand it the wheels are aligned vertically?

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cyclotaur
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Re: Being REFUSED warranty on a defective Lynskey frame

Postby cyclotaur » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:00 pm

Drizt wrote:
cyclotaur wrote:I'm also intrigued by this - :?: has anyone else taken a spin on the bike and felt the same thing?
This!
I'd also like to know if your work-stand is one where the front forks and BB are supported and, if so, is it correctly and accurately aligned front to back ...
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