Climbing on Giant Defy vs TCR

[jerrah]

When I was younger I was heavily into hill climbing. Years passed and I stopped riding, gained some weight and have since resumed riding and lost most of the weight.

I've owned Giant Defy's for a few years and I commonly see it described in reviews and forums as an "endurance" bike and not a racy bike like the TCR.
I've also seen the TCR brought down to earth and described as stiff, uncomfortable, no real benefit to regular riders and that people would be better with the Defy.

As I'm coming back around to the idea that climbing hills quickly is a good idea and I'd like to conquer the hills of my home town I'm embarking on some training and final weight loss. When I'm out riding I'm doing my best to maintain fairly quick (according to Strava) averages over segments and improving my times on hills. I probably average around 350-400km per week with the longest ride around the 100-130km mark.

Is there a tangible benefit as a climber to riding a modern TCR over a modern Defy for this scenario? My local shops don't seem to stock TCR's and have Defy's and mountain bikes as the floor stock. I'm not prepared to order one in for the sake of a test ride if it's going to climb the same as the Defy.

[Duck!]

I've owned Giant Defy's for a few years and I commonly see it described in reviews and forums as an "endurance" bike and not a racy bike like the TCR.
I've also seen the TCR brought down to earth and described as stiff, uncomfortable, no real benefit to regular riders and that people would be better with the Defy.

Clearly written by people who have never ridden a TCR. Yes it's a little stiffer and a little less comfortable over very long rides than a Defy, but it's not that bad. If anything, the brand new TCR which has only recently been launched & barely reaching the shops now has been tuned for a little more compliance than the old one.

In basic terms the Defy has a slightly longer wheelbase, which tames the handling, while the top tube is shorter and the head tube taller than the TCR, which combine to sit the rider a little more upright. Tube profiles, and in the case of carbon frames, the layup of the fibres, are also slightly different to allow the Defy to flex in different ways. But a fundamental property of composites (to use the correct term for what is commonly referred to as carbon fibre) is that the resin that binds the fibres has a small amount of compressibility, which absorbs road vibration quite effectively. A carbon TCR will still give a smoother ride than an aluminium Defy.

To specifically address the original question, the TCR will climb slightly more efficiently due to its tighter rear end flexing a little less under power, but it's still depndent on the climbing ability of the rider. Both descend confidently, with the TCR being just a little more responsive.

I have a carbon TCR and alloy OCR (Defy forerunner); I've done several rides in excess of 250km (longest one was 320km) on the TCR, I would not dream of doing those distances on the OCR, because the aluminium is so much less forgiving.

[g-boaf]

TCR is stiff and uncomfortable?

News to me. Get the right fit, the correct saddle and it will be fine. I have a TCR SL1 with the standard alloy wheels it came with. It is perfectly decent for 150+km rides.

Going uphill is more down to the rider than the bike, unless the bike is very heavy, has unsuitable gearing or badly looked after.

I also should say that I find the TCR to have pretty sedate handling as well. Not twitchy, not nervous.

[jerrah]

Sounds like the TCR isn't really any worse to live with - but at the same time it doesn't sound like it will make much of a difference to climb / ride fast on. I like the sound of the new TCR's in the reviews, but then almost every bike sounds good in the reviews!

It feels difficult to quantify the purchase of a TCR over the Defy I already have unless it's N + 1. I guess I'll have to find one to test ride one day and see for myself. Maybe I should have bought TCR's in the past. I've never seen one in the shops but I've seen as many of them on the road as I've seen Defy's.

# And lose more weight and ride more hills!

[g-boaf]

I don't know which shops you are going to, but the ones around Sydney that do Giant (eg, Giant Sydney, Blackmans, etc) always seem to have TCRs of various types. Propel too.

I don't know what Defy weighs, but my TCR is right on 6.8kg. I don't know about the new ones, but the talk of new ones might just mean the older ones get a price cut. One thing, they almost always seem to come with 42cm bars. If they are too wide, you might have a trouble getting narrower ones.

[JdM]

TCR is stiff and uncomfortable?

News to me. Get the right fit, the correct saddle and it will be fine. I have a TCR SL1 with the standard alloy wheels it came with. It is perfectly decent for 150+km rides.

This. Same experience for me thus far (although I have just changed the wheels).

[jerrah]

I don't know which shops you are going to, but the ones around Sydney that do Giant (eg, Giant Sydney, Blackmans, etc) always seem to have TCRs of various types. Propel too.

I'm a very long way from Sydney! The local shop has just got in a TCR but it's a base spec one. If I was getting a new bike I'd be going with Di2 again. They do have a Propel as well but I've never given it a 2nd thought.

I don't know what Defy weighs, but my TCR is right on 6.8kg. I don't know about the new ones, but the talk of new ones might just mean the older ones get a price cut. One thing, they almost always seem to come with 42cm bars. If they are too wide, you might have a trouble getting narrower ones.

I think my Defy (on bathroom scales) comes in around 8kg for a large.

[singlespeedscott]

G-boaf you need to tell the OP what you weigh. That in itself will have a big effect on rider comfort. The other thing is you ride in Sydney. Having lived there in the past I can tell you that even though the roads are a patch work of repairs they are in general a lot smoother than those found in rural areas. The buzz of coarse chip fatigues a lot more than city street hotmix

[Cmm]

Jerrah unless you are in the market for a new bike I don't feel there would be use in buying a tcr purely for faster climbs. I have recently owned a 2015 defy advanced pro 2 (disc model) 2014 tcr advanced sl1 and a specialized crux (cx bike that I have road tyres on for winter) and apart from the fdifference in fit "racier tcr" vs "endurance defy" vs "cx crux" the climbing capabilities of the bikes come down to me unfortunately and more so I have my pb up the 1:20 (local climb used by many cyclists) on the aluminium crux so as stated above as long as it doesn't weigh a ton and the gearing is adequate you should be on track with the defy

[panosk]

to climb faster, you need:
1 - a lighter body
2 - a lighter bike
3 - a stiffer bike
4 - lighter wheels/tyres/tubes

[Storm Boy]

Don't discount the positive effect of getting a bike fit done by someone who really knows what they are doing. IMHO this can make at least as much difference as all the other changes put together.

Regards,

SB

[singlespeedscott]

When it comes to climbing I don't think the minuscule changes from a bike fit going to make a huge difference.

[rjk]

If you are going to do a lot of hills. Maybe the defy disc model will suit you best. Descending with disc brakes is a lot more fun

[g-boaf]

When it comes to climbing I don't think the minuscule changes from a bike fit going to make a huge difference.

It can make a bigger difference than you might expect, especially if the fit beforehand wasn't correct in the first place.

It made a huge difference for me. Very noticeable after 150km. Mostly rode yesterday on coarse chip or very bumpy crumbling roads, and no discomfort at all. Had that bike fit for nearly a year, wouldn't change it.

[Drizt]

G-boaf is correct. Bike fit can have a big impact, even for climbing.

[singlespeedscott]

In what way? Unless your saddle height is completely wrong. I really can't see it making a huge diff. When climbing your either out of the saddle or forward trying to spin hands on the tops of the bars

[trailgumby]

After my fit was done on the mtb, I was putting out noticeably more power on the climbs. Lifted the saddle by 5mm on one bike, changes in cleat placement, lifted the bars, change in stem length... I can't quantify the improvement (no power meter back then) but I was noticeably quicker.

[BraddAU]

I have the TCR and it flies up hills. It's stiff, but it's a bike you can ride all day - i've done that many times. Agree with the other posts that suggest the difference between the TCR and Defy is negligible. If you can handle the design and look of the Defy, maybe that's the go because it is the choice for all terrain without much performance compromise (backed up by the Paris Roubaix 2015 win).

[jerrah]

I already own a Defy which is a pretty good ride but the wheelset is quite heavy. I suspect that if I put a set of fancy carbon wheels on it I could get the weight down close to that of a TCR - but then I'd be spending close to the cost of a TCR on wheels. As per my light thread I'll probably keep riding what I've got for a bit longer and make a choice on my next bike. I'll have to track down a TCR before then for an extended test ride!

I'm not sure if the Paris-Roubaix Defy shares much in common with the consumer Defy. Even if you ignore the lack of disc brakes the bike frame looks different?

[Duck!]

II'm not sure if the Paris-Roubaix Defy shares much in common with the consumer Defy. Even if you ignore the lack of disc brakes the bike frame looks different.

The Defy that Paris-Roubaix was won on was a 2012-14-series frame, hence looking different. At the time of the race disc brakes were not UCI-legal, even for testing, so the previous model frame was used. Small spec details may differ from the "public" version, but it's essentially a Defy Advanced SL 0 from 2014. It is actually a lighter bike than the equivalent-spec TCR! There are UCI rules that dictate bikes and equipment are production or soon-to-enter-production models.

[jerrah]

The Defy that Paris-Roubaix was won on was a 2012-14-series frame, hence looking different.

That makes sense.

It is actually a lighter bike than the equivalent-spec TCR!

I guess that came around to the original question I had. If the Defy is lighter, more comfortable and imperceptibly less stiff than the TCR, why do people purchase (and rave about) the TCR? The TCR would have a shorter wheelbase to have sharper steering.

I'm sure there is more to it and my gut tells me there has to be a competitive advantage (possibly mostly for racing) in riding a TCR.

[rodneycc]

I've got both the TCR and the Defy and I find the comparisons very very interesting. The beauty I reckon is in that compact shape which seems to give you that little more power without you realizing it.

I think the main noticeable difference is just the headtube and stack height. There are other geo differences but thats the main one I found for me and had to space up the front end to lift the bars higher which kind of defeated the purpose a little to buying a TCR.

The Defy I reckon is massively underrated. Its a really fast bike just probably not as areo in the front end but as a reccy rider I might even go as far to say that the Defy is better for recreational weekend warriors over the TCR. To me though these two bikes are the best two bikes performance cost benefit wise you can buy.


Edit: I haven't tried this yet but I bet if I slammed the stem on the Defy then I would get a very similar ride feel to a spaced up TCR (the benefit of the TCR is that you can get in a lower riding position so depends a lot on your riding style)

[jerrah]

Thank you for your reply Rodneycc. I'm 6"4 on a large defy and there is about an inch of spacers under the stem (which is in turn angled down). I figured because my seat post is fairly extended from the frame that the spacers are required to determine a good fit for me, but it's interesting that a TCR may/is significantly lower as I could go A LOT lower on the Defy before running out of spacers. I could experiment with lowering the stem on the fork to see what a more TCR ride is like. Low handlebars I assume only really benefits weight on the front end and aerodynamics. I have no idea how to determine the correct bars height beyond going with what is comfortable.

I did try an alloy XL Defy but it felt way too long in the top tube, even with a shorter stem.

[usernameforme]

Try getting a saddle to handlebar drop of around 5-6cm as a starting point. Work on your core strength and it shouldn't be too far off. (Disclaimer: I have no idea about bike fits, just noticing this is a "common" handlebar drop among the taller people in my group.)

Also try getting a wider range cassette (say an 11-28) and a powermeter. If you want to climb fast most would argue you've got to climb to power. If you're just riding for fun a nice set of wheels would do (or save the cash). (Bike) weight means bugger all (compared to the fitness of the rider), having gears that you can comfortably spin in is much more important.

I'd treat the comment earlier about a lighter body means climbing faster with caution - sure if you're carrying a lot of excess fat it'll slow you down, but get too slim and you might compromise your w/kg. Just a little anecdote, I used to try and slim down to 54kg for racing, but I find I climb much faster at 58kg. Basically, don't diet yourself too heavily, just eat healthy, train and rest properly.

[cameronp]

Edit: I haven't tried this yet but I bet if I slammed the stem on the Defy then I would get a very similar ride feel to a spaced up TCR (the benefit of the TCR is that you can get in a lower riding position so depends a lot on your riding style)

When I was shopping for my Defy I test-rode a lot of different road bikes. The TCR wasn't one of them but I did try a Norco Tactic, which is a similarly sharp, stiff racing machine. The difference between the two styles of bike was far more than just the height of the stem. A stiffer frame and shorter wheelbase makes a pretty big difference. (Personally I find the more laid back handling of an endurance bike more confidence-inspiring.)

Don't know enough to comment on the original question about climbing speed.