Carbon Aero Wheels
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Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby SeanD380 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:51 pm
Been looking at 404's and the like, seems that 50 - 60ish mm profile and around 25mm wide is the go.
The Bora's look good also. Anyone got any other suggestions???
Also are Tubbies worth the effort. Don;t see worth the hassle of getting stranded on a fast group ride.
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- Derny Driver
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby Derny Driver » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:06 pm
I have Zipp 404 tubulars - 23mm tyres
and
Enve 3.4 (35 /45mm) tubulars - 25mm tyres
These are race wheels and are only used occasionally.
For everyday riding, training and some racing
Aluminium clinchers (Fulcrums)
So I cant answer your question. Tubulars wear too fast and are too much hassle to ride every day (in my opinion).
But I would never buy carbon clinchers, that is an oxymoron!
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby softy » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:03 pm
I have to somewhat agree.......Derny Driver wrote:The words 'carbon' and 'clincher' do not go together in my language. If you want the lightness of carbon then go the full hog and go tubular.
I have Zipp 404 tubulars - 23mm tyres
and
Enve 3.4 (35 /45mm) tubulars - 25mm tyres
These are race wheels and are only used occasionally.
For everyday riding, training and some racing
Aluminium clinchers (Fulcrums)
So I cant answer your question. Tubulars wear too fast and are too much hassle to ride every day (in my opinion).
But I would never buy carbon clinchers, that is an oxymoron!
Tubulars are just another tyre design and can be used every day, I do. They where the standard once and you just need to get yourself in the mode using them. Yes you need to carry a spare tyre and can work out a bit more expensive. Otherwise they present mostly benefits. One being the rim can be made lighter.
Carbon is used in rims for lightness, so why buy heavy carbon rims?
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby open roader » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:10 pm
I also found that anything over circa 35/38mm deep profiles tend to catch plenty of crosswind comapred to low profile wheels which can be a distraction when you are trying to propel your bike as fast as you can. A fast descent on a light weight carbon deep profile front wheel with a 40km/hr gusty crosswind can be a hair raising experience on some bikes and is def. not my fav. place to be on a bike ride.
Yes, tubulars are worth the cost/effort, the rims are lighter than clinchers and respond to power input faster - if you attack with many aggressive accelerations multiple times in a race then you will gain a small advantage with the lesser rotating mass of tubular rims.
Often high end tubular tyres are discounted at places like Ribble making them as cost effective to buy as their clincher counterparts. I also like the way high end tubular tyres roll - the magic carpet ride does exist, esp. on wider tubs. (25mm+) Of course this is all highly subjective but I swear the magic carpet ride is there if you ride quality hoops and pay attention to the way you glue them up and the pressures you set them to. However, if you tend to pick up regular penetration punctures on your rides then clinchers are def. cheaper to fix/replace. Tubulars are just another tyre system that come with pros and cons like any other tyre system, but in my opinion, if you want to roll fast with max. comfort and damn the expense a tubular race tyre is the bees knees.
The new Bora wheels now are manufactured with a wider 24.2mm rim and have a purpose made brake track which is essential now if you are going to pay megabucks for a high end wheelset. I have ridden Madfiber and Xentis wheels - both with patented raised brake tracks which perform head and shoulders over other carbon aero rims I have ridden like Corima Aero+ / TWE 50mm / Zipp 404. (esp. in the wet)
Ceramic bearings are nice to have with their uber longevity and consistant high performance, but again from my experience, I don't think they roll any better than many well maintained steel bearing hubs. Ceramic bearing upgrades can also be cheaper to do yourself as an after market upgrade than buying from 'factory new'.
FWIW If I was looking for a fast rolling, high end carbon fiber aero wheelset and I was fit / strong enough to hold 35km/hr or more for extended periods, I'd look hard at a pair of Campagnolo Bora One tubulars in either 35mm or 50mm profile and glue up a pair of 25mm Vittoria SC tubulars.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby queequeg » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:16 pm
Anyone got some stats on the effect of weight vs speed vs profile. So, with two wheelsets where the only difference is that one is tubular and one is a clincher, what's the marginal gain in terms of speed. Keeping it simple, assume an ITT.softy wrote:I have to somewhat agree.......Derny Driver wrote:The words 'carbon' and 'clincher' do not go together in my language. If you want the lightness of carbon then go the full hog and go tubular.
I have Zipp 404 tubulars - 23mm tyres
and
Enve 3.4 (35 /45mm) tubulars - 25mm tyres
These are race wheels and are only used occasionally.
For everyday riding, training and some racing
Aluminium clinchers (Fulcrums)
So I cant answer your question. Tubulars wear too fast and are too much hassle to ride every day (in my opinion).
But I would never buy carbon clinchers, that is an oxymoron!
Tubulars are just another tyre design and can be used every day, I do. They where the standard once and you just need to get yourself in the mode using them. Yes you need to carry a spare tyre and can work out a bit more expensive. Otherwise they present mostly benefits. One being the rim can be made lighter.
Carbon is used in rims for lightness, so why buy heavy carbon rims?
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby SeanD380 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:17 pm
I regularly do 20km to 30km sessions as part of a larger ride and maintain an average speed of over 35kph, so believe I can benefit from some more aero wheels.
I will look into the logistics of tubs and how difficult they are to change etc.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby softy » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:01 pm
Mid priced carbon clinchers generally are not light. So the question is, how much advantage are you getting. I have ridden top end ally rims and they are really nice in this price bracket. So why buy heavy carbon? I personally like to pick up secondhand carbon tubular rims which are hardly used, you can get some real bargains as they have a small market and people keep them for only best outings.
Clinchers need to have a strong design where the bead sits to hold high pressures associated with racing tyres, tubulars don't, so everything being equal they can be made lighter.
Now I will not go into the pros and cons of clinchers vs tubulars as a quick search will answer those questions, but once you have gotten use to fitting and removing tubulars, I don't believe they are the black art some make them out to be and I say this from experience, as I use them exculsively.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby open roader » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:27 pm
+1 as do I.softy wrote: I use them exculsively
All my (4) roadies have tubular wheelsets fitted. However, I do qualify this by stressing that punctures are a blue moon event for me (touch wood) and if they happened regularly, my love of high end tubular tyres might fade somewhat as the dead tyre bill added up.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby Too Tired » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:37 am
I really enjoy the added braking capability of the alloy breaking surface. Gives me much more confidence down hills. And it's nice not to carry a whole tyre in case of flat. A tube is much more compact.
I love my 303s but the impracticalities of training on then have bitten me too many times.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby softy » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:55 am
I realise a tube with a lacky band is a little more convenient over a whole tyre, but really it is only grams....... and you know the "preferred" folding method which will fit into a saddle bag.Too Tired wrote:Just bought some ZIPP404 clinchers to replace (or supplement) my 303 tubulars. First ride this morning.
I really enjoy the added braking capability of the alloy breaking surface. Gives me much more confidence down hills. And it's nice not to carry a whole tyre in case of flat. A tube is much more compact.
I love my 303s but the impracticalities of training on then have bitten me too many times.
What are the impracticalitiess you are mentioning? Can you please share.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby biker jk » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:22 am
I know that Tony Martin won the world ITT championship in 2011 on clinchers. The article below suggests you can make a clincher tyre with lower rolling resistance than a tubular.queequeg wrote:
Anyone got some stats on the effect of weight vs speed vs profile. So, with two wheelsets where the only difference is that one is tubular and one is a clincher, what's the marginal gain in terms of speed. Keeping it simple, assume an ITT.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/07/ ... ers_338196
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby ValleyForge » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:25 am
So I can get >5K out of my Contis, or maybe 3K out of my Veloflex on the front and 2K on the back. But I'd rather climb or sprint on my tubulars any day. But I ain't won Lotto.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby Too Tired » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:59 am
For training I was running Continental Giros. So the difference is between having one of these two in your pocket:softy wrote: I realise a tube with a lacky band is a little more convenient over a whole tyre, but really it is only grams....... and you know the "preferred" folding method which will fit into a saddle bag.
What are the impracticalitiess you are mentioning? Can you please share.
Oh, and tape to stick the tubular tyre on.
And if you get a second flat you're stuffed. With the clinchers one of our gang will have a spare tube.
But the major difference is braking. My 303s are full carbon. Braking on carbon just doesn't work and requires a lot of forethought before you need to stop. The new 404s have alloy braking surface and there is a world of difference.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby ValleyForge » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:11 pm
A really good tip is wrap your tubes in polywrap - like on pallets. Protective and shrinks the tubes down a huge amount.Too Tired wrote: For training I was running Continental Giros. So the difference is between having one of these two in your pocket:
Oh, and tape to stick the tubular tyre on.
And if you get a second flat you're stuffed. With the clinchers one of our gang will have a spare tube.
But the major difference is braking. My 303s are full carbon. Braking on carbon just doesn't work and requires a lot of forethought before you need to stop. The new 404s have alloy braking surface and there is a world of difference.
Braking - I've fiddled with numerous shoe combinations and I'd go say far as to say [in the dry] the braking on all my carbon wheels is the same as my alloy wheels. The SwissStops were like iced VoVos on the Campy wheels but are brilliant on the DT Swiss wheels. The KoolStops which I have used for years are, well, meh. And The Campy shoes are happiest on the Campy wheels. And my mates Zipp 404s. I have no explanations for any of this.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby softy » Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:05 pm
I understand brakes surfaces can be a player but not really related to tubulars.
I suppose comfort can be a player if only travelling with using your jersey pockets, a tube is going to be a bit more comfy than a whole tyre.
I need to carry a few other items like a epipen, so for peace of mind this includes, a mini pump, co2 canister, a couple of tools and a phone.
But what I would like to share is using a tubular spare, first there is a way to fold, not round. Also you need to get all the air out as you fold. It takes a little while but only is done rarely when you use the spare. All my bits fit into a topeak (medium) seat bag.
Here it is below.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081129396 ... ubularTire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby spider1974 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:25 pm
By 'larger ride' do you mean more people or you do a 120km long ride but there are sections that are 20-30km long that you do?SeanD380 wrote:Cool, thanks everyone.
I regularly do 20km to 30km sessions as part of a larger ride and maintain an average speed of over 35kph, so believe I can benefit from some more aero wheels.
I will look into the logistics of tubs and how difficult they are to change etc.
You traveling with others?
I find that riding in a peloton loses all sense of the aerodynamic advantages of the wheels....the drfat of others is so much more significant that the wheels make little difference.
Ridden: aluminum track Zipp 303, carbon 404, enve 3.4.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby Thoglette » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:22 pm
I carry Stans - that goes in the tyre if and when I get a puncture. I swap tyres only if it's completely buggered. (I'm still in glue land, haven't tried tape)Too Tired wrote:And if you get a second flat you're stuffed. With the clinchers one of our gang will have a spare tube.
Meanwhile, the physics hasn't changed. Ergo: anything you can do in a clincher you can do better with a tubular.biker jk wrote:The article below suggests you can make a clincher tyre with lower rolling resistance than a tubular.
Indeed, reading the article the only stated positive was the use of latex glued rather than vulcanised construction - straight out of the "how to" manual for hand made tubulars.
Which, apparently (if you believe the spin) don't exist.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby SeanD380 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:10 pm
Correct 60 -70km ride with a faster 20-30 included.spider1974 wrote:
By 'larger ride' do you mean more people or you do a 120km long ride but there are sections that are 20-30km long that you do?
You traveling with others?
Ridden: aluminum track Zipp 303, carbon 404, enve 3.4.
On these rides I'm mainly alone. Rare occasion in a group and as you say the drafting helps more than any aero wheels will
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby spider1974 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:46 pm
any budgetary constraints?
How about the new Bontrager Aeolus (3 or 5)...tubeless compatible (half and half bewteen a clincher and tub), rims made by Zipp (so aerodynamically great), hub internals bt DT Swiss - so better then the zipps. and light to boot. Just not cheap!
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby Fastas » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:47 pm
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby Duck! » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:24 pm
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby softy » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:47 am
Can't wait to try them......
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby queequeg » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:04 pm
They certainly feel a bit lighter than the stock Cosmic Elites that came with the bike, and as I was heading out the track on Tue night I got my first lesson in bike handling with deep dish wheels in big crosswinds!
I've been given an opportunity to test drive done HED 60mm clinchers as well, so that will be fun. I have to give the C50s a run this weekend at Waratahs, as Tue night got cancelled due to the rain.
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Re: Carbon Aero Wheels
Postby biker jk » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:18 pm
Alternatively, try a disc brake road bike with carbon clincher wheels. I keep hearing it's about braking technique but the reality is that steep descents, carbon clinchers and rim brakes are not a smart combination. Even the best carbon rim manufacturers have had their rims melted. Carbon traps heat, it's that simple.Duck! wrote:Or just learn to not drag the brakes on descents... Short, hard brake applications with time to "breathe" & cool are best on carbon; prolonged brake dragging builds up too much heat, as will incorrect pads. I've done Arthurs Seat on carbon wheels plenty of times with no rim distortion, and that's a much more demanding descent than any in the 'Nongs.
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