Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

petie
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Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby petie » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:27 pm

I'm building up a roadie again and have had all the parts sitting around for ages. It's an old steel frame re-spaced at a modern 130mm. Definitely not light or new, but I will be hoping to pump out some training KMs and want reasonable and reliable gearing.

I have a well used Ultegra 6500 9 speed groupset that I can put on, but will imminently need a new cassette/chain, and needs a bit of cosmetic attention to be up to my "new build" standard (rear brake bolt, brifter covers, hoods, chainrings). I went searching for 9 speed gear and found that it is only on par with 10/11 speed gear or often more expensive(for ultegra level)! Problem is, I'm so far behind, that upgrading to 10 speed seems almost obsolete, and I'll need a new freehub body (i think) if I jump right to the future with 11 speed, incurring extra cost.

Now I will probably go through a cassette and chain a year, maybe a little earlier. On the face of it, staying with 9 speed will cost more, since I'll need to find NOS stock of the cosmetic parts and the consumables at the quality I'm looking at are expensive (and only going to get more expensive and hard to find). 10 speed seems like the logical option, but I'm worried that when the time comes for a cassette/chain and I want new hoods etc I'll be facing the exact same predicament I currently face with 9 speed! Has anyone faced the same issue and got any guidance? Or thoughts on the 10 speed obsolescence theory?

PS: I'm still struggling on with 8 speed on my commuter :oops: , but I just replaced the cassette with some boat anchor :shock: since that was all I could access easily and affordably.... :cry: And my 9 speed spares pile for the MTB is shrinking rapidly :o

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby softy » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:05 am

Was reading in another thread shimano has discontinued the 10 speed electronic.

So your fears are possibly true, 10 speed is now becoming a little long in the tooth. Still available now, but for how long...... Not that I believe it is a good thing, forcing us to upgrade to the lastest formats.

The big plus with11 speed is the cassette jumps can be smaller steps so incrementally the cadence can be kept easier in the sweet spot. But in the end it is your decision and if you think the bike is worth it.

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:54 am

petie wrote: Now I will probably go through a cassette and chain a year, maybe a little earlier. On the face of it, staying with 9 speed will cost more, since I'll need to find NOS stock of the cosmetic parts and the consumables at the quality I'm looking at are expensive (and only going to get more expensive and hard to find). 10 speed seems like the logical option, but I'm worried that when the time comes for a cassette/chain and I want new hoods etc I'll be facing the exact same predicament I currently face with 9 speed! Has anyone faced the same issue and got any guidance? Or thoughts on the 10 speed obsolescence theory?
Ok, firstly everything becomes obsolete eventually. don't stress. obsolescence is not a theory, it's a reality for everything, especialyl groupsets. Maybe next year they might do 12 speed?

Next, I'm not sure how much replacement you are planning, but 10 speed parts will be around for a long time yet. Heck even 9 speed casettes and chains are still hanging around. Aside from that the only other things that might need changing are chain rings (11 speed works just fine) and rear derailleur which should still be in stock for a while. I'm not sure why you are getting concerned over something like hood covers? If this is a problem maybe you could just buy some in anticipation now?

Finally, I'd just go 11 speed unless you really had budget problems. But if you do go 10 speed it won't miraculously dissapear overnight.
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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby petie » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:16 pm

Very true, I'm a bit pedantic about everything looking neat, hence the comment about hoods.

I think I might just jump to 11 speed, though I will need to figure out what to do with my freehub. Does anyone know if all freehubs need changing, or are some already wide enough for the 11 speed?

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:28 pm

Freehub likely needs changing. Unless you have a more recent mavic hubs.
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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Duck! » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:48 pm

Not-so-recent Mavic hubs are 11-sp. compatible. I would say most other hubs of Ultegra 9-sp. vintage ('98-'04) are not going to be convertible.

10-sp. as a current production spec has lasted a lot longer at upper levels than 9-sp., so it follows that although some parts are discontinued a lot will remain for a long time yet. Where problems arise is that where there is a lot of interchangeability between older stuff (as long as shifter, chain & cassette are all for the same number of gears, everything else from 7-10sp. will play nicely), 11-sp. has revised shifter & derailleur geometry which is incompatible with older stuff. Bizarrely, new Tiagra, while still 10-sp, uses the shifter/derailleur geometry of the 11-sp. groups, so can't be mixed with other 10-sp. bits (chains, cassettes & cranks remain compatible though). Sora is due for an update next year, but whether it makes the jump to 10-sp. or remains 9-sp. I do not know.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Calvin27 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:24 pm

Duck! wrote:Not-so-recent Mavic hubs are 11-sp. compatible. I would say most other hubs of Ultegra 9-sp. vintage ('98-'04) are not going to be convertible.

10-sp. as a current production spec has lasted a lot longer at upper levels than 9-sp., so it follows that although some parts are discontinued a lot will remain for a long time yet. Where problems arise is that where there is a lot of interchangeability between older stuff (as long as shifter, chain & cassette are all for the same number of gears, everything else from 7-10sp. will play nicely), 11-sp. has revised shifter & derailleur geometry which is incompatible with older stuff. Bizarrely, new Tiagra, while still 10-sp, uses the shifter/derailleur geometry of the 11-sp. groups, so can't be mixed with other 10-sp. bits (chains, cassettes & cranks remain compatible though). Sora is due for an update next year, but whether it makes the jump to 10-sp. or remains 9-sp. I do not know.
In summary comaptibility is a nightmare. Ask duck or just buy what you can afford and forget about future upgrade.
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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby petie » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:14 am

Cheers for the advice, nice to have your insight on 10 speed there duck.

So..., does anyone have any recommendations for affordable 11 speed compatible wheels? Thinking of jumping to rival 22....!

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby HappyHumber » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:20 am

Some clever clogs with mills or lathes can take a bit of the shoulder of less speed freehubs, can't they Duck?

I've seen a few posts elsewhere with people converting 10sp to 11sp free hubs. By extension, I thought if you had the know-how & equipment, or access to a mate with the know how & equipment you could do the same with 9sp ?

FWIW petie ... I am doggedly sticking to 9sp.... and my DT shifters; if only for the interchangeability.
One of my wheelsets is 10sp era 105, but I use a spacer on it.
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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Duck! » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:46 pm

HappyHumber wrote:Some clever clogs with mills or lathes can take a bit of the shoulder of less speed freehubs, can't they Duck?

I've seen a few posts elsewhere with people converting 10sp to 11sp free hubs. By extension, I thought if you had the know-how & equipment, or access to a mate with the know how & equipment you could do the same with 9sp ?
Machining the freehub has been done, but it's not a recommended practice. Doing so reduces clearance to the spokes, which depending on hub dimensions may result in interference with the chain and/or rear derailleur. A proper conversion uses a longer freehub which maintains clearance, a correspondingly thinner spacer on the off side so the whole hub moves over on the axle, then a tweak of the spokes to recentre the rim over the hub. That is on a 8/9/10-sp. hub; 10-sp. specific hubs are a rare beast, which feature a deeper spline which will only accept Shimano Dura-Ace, Ultegra & 105 cassettes. They're also slightly shorter than 8/9-sp. bodies.
FWIW petie ... I am doggedly sticking to 9sp.... and my DT shifters; if only for the interchangeability.
One of my wheelsets is 10-sp era 105, but I use a spacer on it.
You should only ever use a spacer behind a 9-sp. cassette on a Mavic hub, not because it's 9-sp. but because it's a Mavic hub. Although a teensy bit narrower overall, 9-sp. cassettes are wider at the core than the aforementioned 10-sp. models, which is why those cassettes need a spacer when fitted to a hub that is not Shimano 10-sp. specific. Tiagra & SRAM cassettes are built to the 9-sp. spline, so no extra spacer.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby macca33 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:12 pm

petie wrote:Cheers for the advice, nice to have your insight on 10 speed there duck.

So..., does anyone have any recommendations for affordable 11 speed compatible wheels? Thinking of jumping to rival 22....!

You could look at Pro-Lite's Braccianos, or similar, otherwise, Fulcrum Racing 7, 5, Quattros - all are decent low-mid range wheelsets.

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Bentnose » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:09 pm

I'm just building up a new road bike in 10 spd, just happened to have most of the parts already, thought about 11spd, then though about 12spd being next and didn't bother. Still 9spd on MTB, no rush to change yet, plenty of spares still available.
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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Duck! » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:44 pm

I think any thought of 12-sp. is rather premature. 10-sp. lasted through two generational updates, unlike the earlier models which tended to gain a gear with each evolution cycle, so I reckon it's more likely that 11-sp. will similarly see a second series run.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby HappyHumber » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:59 pm

Duck! wrote:
HappyHumber wrote:One of my wheelsets is 10-sp era 105, but I use a spacer on it.
You should only ever use a spacer behind a 9-sp. cassette on a Mavic hub, not because it's 9-sp. but because it's a Mavic hub. Although a teensy bit narrower overall, 9-sp. cassettes are wider at the core than the aforementioned 10-sp. models, which is why those cassettes need a spacer when fitted to a hub that is not Shimano 10-sp. specific. Tiagra & SRAM cassettes are built to the 9-sp. spline, so no extra spacer.

Hhmmm. I'll have to look at what series 105 the weels are. Maybe I was initially and they are 11speed. Bought barely 12 months ago, but they came with a spacer I just used with my 9sp cassette with no hassles..
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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby Duck! » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:22 pm

You threw me with the 10-sp. era reference, which (Mavic excepted) does not use a spacer for 8 or 9-sp. cassettes. They don't do a 105-badged wheelset any more, so they're either 105 hubs in other rims, or an approximately 105-level RS-series wheelset. 11-sp. 105 hubs are 5800; anything else (5500/5600/5700) is 8/9/10-sp. "Non-groupset" wheels that are 11-sp. compatible have a model number ending in 1 (eg RS31, RS81), except RS010 and R501, the latter still being 8/9/10-sp. 11-sp. wheels do need a spacer for all cassettes of 10-or-less sp, supplied with the wheel, plus for 105, Ultegra & Dura-Ace 10-sp. the 1mm spacer supplied with the cassette.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Stick with 9 speed or jump to 11 speed?

Postby HappyHumber » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:36 pm

105 hubs in H+Son Archetypes ex Wiggle. Pretty happy with them after a few thou Ks.

My bad originally calling them 10sp. 5800 was the series number I had in my head, but I didn't want to quote it till I went and double checked after my first error. ;)

As well as being a bit of a retro-grouch in many ways, I'm sticking to the loose ball Shimano stuff for serviceability. Just recently did some cartridge bearings a Surly hub. Not in a rush to do that again.
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