8 sp to 11 sp conversion

[ausvegguykk]

Sup all, i want to convert my 8 speed road bike to 11 speed, and because of a few things, i dont think i can just buy a new groupset... those reasons being... i want to reuse as many parts i already have as possible and a groupset is unlikely to have a long cage derailleur, and large casette that i want


anyway, i want to know what parts can i recycle that i already have.

do i need a new left trigger? regardless of if it's 8sp, or 11sp, it will still have only 2 gears, so, is there a problem keeping this?
do i need a new front derailleur? same as before, still 2 front gears regardless of what i get.
do i need a new crankset?- ok i'm kinda assuming i do need one of these, but like i said before, it will probably have 2 gears still, and the same spacing, i'm just assuming that the teeth would be too fat for an 11sp chain

rear hub is already taken care of

anyway, i want to do this as cheaply as possible for the time being, in the future, i can clean it up if i need to.., main reason for wanting to upgrade, is i have been trying to do some climbs recently, and i find i cant get a decent cadence getting up, and 8sp hasn't got as much of a range as 11sp in terms of casette sizes.

any advice appreciated

[A_P]

It's unlikely that any of your current drivetrain including rear wheel will be 11s compatible

[ausvegguykk]

The rear wheel hub is a powetap, comes with different freehubs and spaces for any configuration.

[r2160]

If you can machine 1.8mm from the inside edge of the freehub, it becomes 11 sp.

You shouldnt have to replace the front derailleur, but anytime is a good time for an upgrade.

[Thoglette]

Sup all, i want to convert my 8 speed road bike to 11 speed,

Why? And how fast do you want to spend?
[found it and Duck's answered the question correctly]

[koshari]

Whilst possibly getting away with the same front derailleur you may need to chock a little spacer on one side of the cage or bend in the cage a bit. There is a fair difference between 11 and 8 speed chain outer widths and front shifting may become an issue. You could find if you tune the big ring out wide enough to get the chain up it may start dropping it on the outboard side.

The other hurdle is that shimano changed the rear derailleur ratio from 1.7 (7 to 10 speed) to 1.4 (11speed) which means your definately up for a new rear derailleur going to 11 as opposed to 9/10.

8sp hasn't got as much of a range as 11sp in terms of casette sizes.

are you saying you cannot get enough range with a 11-34 Rear cassette?
http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... lsrc=aw.ds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Duck!]

8/9-sp. MTB rear derailleur & 8-sp. MTB cassette. Range & budget targets met.

Alternatively....

It's unlikely you'll just get a single 11-sp. shifter; they're sold in pairs. You can use your old FD & crankset, but tuning may not be super slick.

Regardless of cassette combination, to go 11-sp. you need a new RD. As previously mentioned, the leverage ratios (distance the derailleur moves relative to amount of cable pulled) are different and your old derailleur will not talk to an 11-sp. shifter.

Brake tuning will need tweaking. from 2nd-generation 10-sp. onward, Shimano revised the brake lever ratio. You can still use older calipers, but need to set them up carefully.

[ausvegguykk]

8/9-sp. MTB rear derailleur & 8-sp. MTB cassette. Range & budget targets met.

Alternatively....

It's unlikely you'll just get a single 11-sp. shifter; they're sold in pairs. You can use your old FD & crankset, but tuning may not be super slick.

Regardless of cassette combination, to go 11-sp. you need a new RD. As previously mentioned, the leverage ratios (distance the derailleur moves relative to amount of cable pulled) are different and your old derailleur will not talk to an 11-sp. shifter.

Brake tuning will need tweaking. from 2nd-generation 10-sp. onward, Shimano revised the brake lever ratio. You can still use older calipers, but need to set them up carefully.

Yep, will definately need new RD, and casette..

Chain reaction sells some single shifters like these http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... prod137968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
i am trying to look up rear derailleurs, and shifters, but i'm having a hard time finding if pull ratios are compatible.. i have heard they can vary even between generations in the same brand, aswell as between brands, and it's not listed directly in specs, and also that MTB derailleurs (for shimano atleast) have different pull ratios than the road ones... ugh

having a look though what i was hoping for though, i think i need to change my tactics for putting this set together

[Duck!]

Read here - should have answers to just about every question you could think of.

[ausvegguykk]

Read here - should have answers to just about every question you could think of.

had a read through it, it does answer alot of questions, still some things i'm not 100% clear on, mainly with compatibility of shifters and derailleurs, as far as i can tell, i am safe to use a sram derailler, with shimano casette, and possibly, i am safe keeping the current front derailleur and crankset (you sure the 8sp crankset will work on 11sp chain ? haha)
still having some trouble finding the right derallieur i want, atm i have refined what i want to something that will support a 11-34, or 11-36 casette, probably around $100 or under... if you have any suggestions on the whole setup i should look at, please tell me!

cheers

edit: FYI, atm, my bike is a stock merida ride 90, aside from the rear hub
http://www.merida.com.au/en_au/bikes/ro ... 0-876.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit2: i'm kinda at witts end, almost about to just settle for a shimano 105 groupset lol...

[Duck!]

The only parts that need to be brand-matched as far as Shimano/SRAM are rear derailleurs and shifters. Everything else is cross-compatible.

My measurements indicate that there is no difference in chainring thickness from 7-sp. through to 11-sp, so there's no issue with the narrower chain. What is different is that Shimano's 11-sp. and 2nd-gen. 10-sp. cranks have the chainrings spaced further apart than older cranks to reduce ramp pickup on the side of the big ring when cross-chaining on the small ring/small sprocket. Equivalent generation front derailleurs have slightly tweaked leverage to cover the extra swing with no increase in shift lever stroke.

According to the spec sheet of your bike, you already have the same gear spread as a wide-range 11-sp. All you will do by going to 11 is fill a few holes in the middle of the cassette with the extra gears. If you need the extra range, chuck in a M3000 Acera or M4000 Alivio derailleur, compatible with up to 36T (but the biggest you'll find in an 8-sp. cassette is 34T)

[ausvegguykk]

The only parts that need to be brand-matched as far as Shimano/SRAM are rear derailleurs and shifters. Everything else is cross-compatible.

My measurements indicate that there is no difference in chainring thickness from 7-sp. through to 11-sp, so there's no issue with the narrower chain. What is different is that Shimano's 11-sp. and 2nd-gen. 10-sp. cranks have the chainrings spaced further apart than older cranks to reduce ramp pickup on the side of the big ring when cross-chaining on the small ring/small sprocket. Equivalent generation front derailleurs have slightly tweaked leverage to cover the extra swing with no increase in shift lever stroke.

According to the spec sheet of your bike, you already have the same gear spread as a wide-range 11-sp. All you will do by going to 11 is fill a few holes in the middle of the cassette with the extra gears. If you need the extra range, chuck in a M3000 Acera or M4000 Alivio derailleur, compatible with up to 36T (but the biggest you'll find in an 8-sp. cassette is 34T)

Well frankly, the powertap i have mentioned earlier is actually still in the post, and i'm concerned that it may not actually be compatible out of the box with an 8 speed wheel bike. i know it does come with some adjustible spacers/freehubs, but not 100% sure yet, and i was also hoping to find a bigger road derailleur to fit an 11-36, and i know i have seen 11-36 compatible derailleurs and casettes (which i am now having a harder time finding)

edit: atm i'm kinda thinking i might just ditch my cheap ass plan, and get a whole new groupset... atm i'm just looking at the shimano 105, but yeah, it still goes up to 11-32... i think my budget for this conversion is now around $500, so if you have any better suggestions within this price range, please share

cheers

[Duck!]

8, 9 & 10-sp. cassettes are all the same overall width, the sprockets get closer together to fit each extra one in. 11-sp. cassettes are slightly wider, so need a suitably longer freehub body. 11-sp. wheels/hubs are supplied with a spacer to allow the fitting of lesser-geared cassettes.

There is no road derailleur that accepts a 36T sprocket. Shimano's latest Tiagra rear derailleur takes up to 34, but is a bit of an orphan child in that while it's 10-sp, its leverage ratio (along with the matching shifter) is the same as the 11-sp. groups not the older 7/8/9/10-sp. stuff, so can't really be used with anything else, and there's no 11-sp. cassette with more than 32T until you get to the MTB stuff, which flat out will not work with road stuff.

The only other thing that comes close is SRAM's CX1 rear derailleur, which can take up to an insane 42T, but requires a shifter change to suit, and for the 42 also needs a specific freehub, which takes the 10T at the other end.

Next thought.....

If you're thinking a whole group, your best bet is to forget 11-sp. & go 10 with a "9-sp" MTB rear derailleur, which works with all road shifters up to 10-sp. except the aforementioned 4700 Tiagra. M772 XT (the MTB equivalent of Ultegra) is perfect, and 11-32, 34 & 36 cassettes are readily available. You should be able to get the necessary bits without too much difficulty.

[ausvegguykk]

8, 9 & 10-sp. cassettes are all the same overall width, the sprockets get closer together to fit each extra one in. 11-sp. cassettes are slightly wider, so need a suitably longer freehub body. 11-sp. wheels/hubs are supplied with a spacer to allow the fitting of lesser-geared cassettes.

There is no road derailleur that accepts a 36T sprocket. Shimano's latest Tiagra rear derailleur takes up to 34, but is a bit of an orphan child in that while it's 10-sp, its leverage ratio (along with the matching shifter) is the same as the 11-sp. groups not the older 7/8/9/10-sp. stuff, so can't really be used with anything else, and there's no 11-sp. cassette with more than 32T until you get to the MTB stuff, which flat out will not work with road stuff.

The only other thing that comes close is SRAM's CX1 rear derailleur, which can take up to an insane 42T, but requires a shifter change to suit, and for the 42 also needs a specific freehub, which takes the 10T at the other end.

Next thought.....

If you're thinking a whole group, your best bet is to forget 11-sp. & go 10 with a "9-sp" MTB rear derailleur, which works with all road shifters up to 10-sp. except the aforementioned 4700 Tiagra. M772 XT (the MTB equivalent of Ultegra) is perfect, and 11-32, 34 & 36 cassettes are readily available. You should be able to get the necessary bits without too much difficulty.

good idea, have just had a little look and found a video of someone doing just that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ty2nUf1tN4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i'm assuming using a 9 sp derailler, with 10sp shifters roughly matches the pull ratios?... or something haha

so at the moment, i am thinking i will go with the same derailleur he used
http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... -prod40542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
some new 10sp levers... i think i recall you saying something about how campagnolo have a weird set of pull ratios on their shifters, though they have the cheapest set for 10sp
http://www.this link is broken/campagnolo-xenon- ... rs-levers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... and the next cheapest are also campagnolo also

i think i would prefer to just get a new set, and maybe pawn my existing set on ebay or something.

with this setup, do you think i should be concerned about the front derailleur being compatible with the new shifters & the existing crankset, or should i still just go ahead and get a new crankset and front derailleur too?

thanks so much for your help

[Duck!]

i'm assuming using a 9 sp derailler, with 10sp shifters roughly matches the pull ratios?... or something haha

Not roughly, perfectly.

so at the moment, i am thinking i will go with the same derailleur he used
http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... -prod40542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
some new 10sp levers... i think i recall you saying something about how campagnolo have a weird set of pull ratios on their shifters, though they have the cheapest set for 10sp
http://www.this link is broken/campagnolo-xenon- ... rs-levers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... and the next cheapest are also campagnolo also

Throw out the Campagnolo idea - aside from the uneven spacing across the cassette (some sprocket gaps & associated shifter index points are further apart than others), they use a different leverage ratio which is incompatible with all Shimano derailleurs. You need Shimano levers - but not 4700 - to work. Previous-generation 4600 Tiagra are an excellent option which I actually rate better than 2nd gen 105 & Ultegra due to the more direct cable routing. They're rehashed 7800 Dura-Ace with a cosmetic tweak, so are the best thing before 11-sp!

[ausvegguykk]

i'm assuming using a 9 sp derailler, with 10sp shifters roughly matches the pull ratios?... or something haha

Not roughly, perfectly.

so at the moment, i am thinking i will go with the same derailleur he used
http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... -prod40542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
some new 10sp levers... i think i recall you saying something about how campagnolo have a weird set of pull ratios on their shifters, though they have the cheapest set for 10sp
http://www.this link is broken/campagnolo-xenon- ... rs-levers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... and the next cheapest are also campagnolo also

Throw out the Campagnolo idea - aside from the uneven spacing across the cassette (some sprocket gaps & associated shifter index points are further apart than others), they use a different leverage ratio which is incompatible with all Shimano derailleurs. You need Shimano levers - but not 4700 - to work. Previous-generation 4600 Tiagra are an excellent option which I actually rate better than 2nd gen 105 & Ultegra due to the more direct cable routing. They're rehashed 7800 Dura-Ace with a cosmetic tweak, so are the best thing before 11-sp!

sounds good, yeah, i thought campag would be no go..
ok here is what i have now

i might mix and match the parts with wiggle, because i have a voucher there i can use, but that's esentially what i will get
so, do you think i will need a new crank, brakes or front derailleur for this? or they should work fine?

[Duck!]

Crank, brakes & FD will be fine.

[ausvegguykk]

Cheers, i might actually spend $20 more and get a derailleur that can handle a massive casette, just incase lol... do you think any 9sp mtb from shimano/sram will be fine

[koshari]

lets go back a step here and summarise before you begin shelling our your hard earned ( iam making the assumption its hard earned )

going of the link you posted on your current merida setup you have a compact FSA front and already have a SunRace CS-M6 11-32 rear cassette?
this equates to 28 gear inches on a 700c with 25mm tires,
you want to replace the rear 32t cassette to a 36t which will then give you 24.9gear inches?
lets see how this translates into cadence,

so to be worthwhile i think you need to be going to at least 36t to make a noticeable impact.

alternatively you could achieve the same outcome as your last proposal possibly with just a rear cassette ($16) as looking at that claris rear dérailleur I wouldn’t be surprised if a longer b-screw would get the chain up onto 36 teeth, otherwise
you can still get the deore RD you posed for a total cost of $75.

if you still want to go the 10 speed option let be know what you want for the claris 2x8 brifters .

[koshari]

Cheers, i might actually spend $20 more and get a derailleur that can handle a massive casette, just incase lol... do you think any 9sp mtb from shimano/sram will be fine

if you want to go that route why not get a zee 10 speed shadow+ RD with a ratchet? of course you wont be able to run any shimano brifters with it because shimano 10 speed mountain has a different pull ratio again and will need gevenalle shifters or barends. http://gevenalle.com/product/gx/


prolly better just to go with the 36 tops unless you had a frame with better tire clearnaces which would turn it into a bit of a gravel grinder /cross setup, besides on the road 36 is VERY low gearing, the cheapest solution yet if you want to get better cadence ride more hills.


EDIT, have you considered running a triple up front instead??? you would beed to check if the claris brifters are double/triple compatible.
http://www.this link is broken/au/e ... lsrc=aw.ds" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

30front onto 32rear will give you exactly the same gear inches in 24.9!!!

[ausvegguykk]

I have considered a triple ring, but regardless,i have discovered i still need 10 or 11 sp RD/casette anyway to fit on the powertap.
yeah it's low gearing, do need to train more on hills for sure, but i don't want to grind up them until i can hit a decent cadence in the meantime

edit: also, i will let u know on the grifters, i will probably be selling them if i get a full new set

[koshari]

ok, disregard the triple option, it appears the claris shifters come in 2 variants, 2400 and 2403 for triple fronts. you would also need a different front dérailleur.

i did have to google what your powertap was, do your running a power meter rear hub.

[ausvegguykk]

ok, disregard the triple option, it appears the claris shifters come in 2 variants, 2400 and 2403 for triple fronts. you would also need a different front dérailleur.

i did have to google what your powertap was, do your running a power meter rear hub.

Once i upgrade to 10/11sp, i will be

koshari, i might go with what was in the picture earlier, do you have any objections to those parts, or should work good?

cheers, thanks for ur input

[koshari]

do you have any objections to those parts,

I dont mate, just have a general interest in drivetrains and was putting options forward.

duck does this stuff all the time and if there are any obvious gotchas he will generally be aware of them,

if your comfortable with the outlay i see no probs, personally i would likely go with just the RD and cassette swap, ideally if you could borrow a cassette with a 36t large you could check if your current RD can get the chain up on it, as i said i wouldnt be suprised if it could given it currently makes the 32t ans its a well known hack that a longer b screw can get you a little bit of range on some RDs.


But then again i dont have probs with my current roadee which is 34 onto 26 and we have a few nice grades around here. my gravel grinder/allweather bike has 34 onto 28 and i dont ride with a power meter, I just use the how my legs are feeling as a guide but if they get cheaper in the future i may consider such as i ar a bit of a gadgets fan. Out of interest do you have knee issues?

at least you have plenty of options to consider.

[dalai47]

According to the spec sheet of your bike, you already have the same gear spread as a wide-range 11-sp. All you will do by going to 11 is fill a few holes in the middle of the cassette with the extra gears.

^^ This. Bike according to spec sheet has a very low gear for a road bike already.

I've climbed the Mortirolo on bigger gears than that, and that was in the rain so had to ride it seated on the steepest sections to keep traction! Only climb in Australia I've ridden that comes close in Australia is Baw Baw. Can't think of too many roads that need such low gearing.

My recommendation is ride it as is and save your money.