Compatibility between Tigra 4600 and Ultegra 6700

[marty_one]

Hi All,

I have my rear derailleur shifter break on me this morning riding into work. Fortunately I was less than 2km from the office when it happened. So I thought well if its broken just go and buy the Ultegra STI shifters (6700) to replace my current tiagra ones (4600).

The guy that I rang at a bike shop in Prahran victoria (yes that one) told me that the Ultegra shifters would not be compatibly with the tiagra derailleur's. That kinda got me thinking as the way I understand the derailleurs that they operate on a spring type mechanism and the indexing is all done in the shifters. Is this correct, was the bike shop talking out their proverbial *******?

EDIT: Correction I put the wrong model number of tiagra shifter, its actually a 4600. SO I guess that bike shop was correct.

[jules21]

I don't think that's right. the derailleur is just a 'slave' and obeys the shifters. it's compability is based on the pull ratio - how much cable pull at the shifters translates to derailleur movement. I think the Dura Ace ones have a slightly different pull ratio and can't be combined, but other Shimano shifters/derailleurs are all compatible.

I assume you're staying with 10spd shifters. if there is any change in gear numbers (9/10/11) then the derailleur still isn't affected, but obviously you'd need to change the cassette and chain to match.

[biker jk]

Hi All,

I have my rear derailleur break on me this morning riding into work. Fortunately I was less than 2km from the office when it happened. So I thought well if its broken just go and buy the Ultegra STI shifters (6700) to replace my current tiagra ones (4700).

The guy that I rang at a bike shop in Prahran victoria (yes that one) told me that the Ultegra shifters would not be compatibly with the tiagra derailleur's. That kinda got me thinking as the way I understand the derailleurs that they operate on a spring type mechanism and the indexing is all done in the shifters. Is this correct, was the bike shop talking out their proverbial *******?

Sorry but I'm confused, despite having my morning coffee. Why do you need new shifters if you broke your rear derailleur?

[marty_one]

Sorry but I'm confused, despite having my morning coffee. Why do you need new shifters if you broke your rear derailleur?

Sorry fixed up the missing word!

Yes it is my rear derailleur shifter that broke.

[marty_one]

I don't think that's right. the derailleur is just a 'slave' and obeys the shifters. it's compability is based on the pull ratio - how much cable pull at the shifters translates to derailleur movement. I think the Dura Ace ones have a slightly different pull ratio and can't be combined, but other Shimano shifters/derailleurs are all compatible.

I assume you're staying with 10spd shifters. if there is any change in gear numbers (9/10/11) then the derailleur still isn't affected, but obviously you'd need to change the cassette and chain to match.

That's kinda what I thought. Yes will be sticking with 10 speed for the time being as I just put a brand new chain and cassette on my bike recently.

[koshari]

so you broke the tiagra 4700 shifter?

if thats the case i believe you wont be able to replace the tiagra 4700 with ultergra 6700 as tiagra 4700 on a 10 speed setup because tiagra 4700 shifters actually have the same pull ratio as 11 speed. this could suggest however you "MAY" be able to replace the shifters with ultegra 6800 and just lockout the 11th position for 10 speeds providing your tiagra 4700 RD is working still.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bicycles/ ... Dimensions

[jasonc]

check the shimano compatibility document

[Duck!]

so you broke the tiagra 4700 shifter?

if thats the case i believe you wont be able to replace the tiagra 4700 with ultergra 6700 as tiagra 4700 on a 10 speed setup because tiagra 4700 shifters actually have the same pull ratio as 11 speed. this could suggest however you "MAY" be able to replace the shifters with ultegra 6800 and just lockout the 11th position for 10 speeds providing your tiagra 4700 RD is working still.

Yes and no.

The information given by the shop is correct. 4700 Tiagra uses a different cable pull ratio to the other 10-sp. systems (and is the same as 11-sp.), which means the shifter pulls a different amount of cable to get the derailleur to move the required distance. 6700 shifters will not work with 4700 derailleurs.

Similarly, it is not possible to use 11-sp. shifters and tune out the extra gear; 11-sp. has tighter sprocket spacing than 10-sp, thus slightly shorter cable pull between index points, so won't tune properly.

Short version: you must use 4700 shifters with 4700 derailleurs.

[Duck!]

I don't think that's right. the derailleur is just a 'slave' and obeys the shifters. it's compability is based on the pull ratio - how much cable pull at the shifters translates to derailleur movement. I think the Dura Ace ones have a slightly different pull ratio and can't be combined, but other Shimano shifters/derailleurs are all compatible.

I assume you're staying with 10spd shifters. if there is any change in gear numbers (9/10/11) then the derailleur still isn't affected, but obviously you'd need to change the cassette and chain to match.

As I said above. Although still 10-sp. 4700 shares its shifter and derailleur architecture with the 11-sp. family, which is not compatible with other 10-sp. shifters & derailleurs. The change in leverage ratio means the 4700 derailleur needs a longer cable pull to move the required distance than provided by older 10-sp. shifters.

[MattyK]

It's a shame Shimano made an orphan of Tiagra in that way... No upgrade path from older 10 speed systems. No upgrade path from 4700... They really should ditch one or two component levels.

[marty_one]

check the shimano compatibility document

Thanks for the link. Also, there is a correction here, my groupset is actually the 4600. The upside to this according to the compatibility matrix from the link above. The Ultegra shifter will probably work with my rear derailleur.

[cyclotaur]

...Also, there is a correction here, my groupset is actually the 4600. The upside to this according to the compatibility matrix from the link above. The Ultegra shifter will probably work with my rear derailleur.

Can't see how you run 10 speed with 4600 shifters.

Ditch the lot and get a full 4700 groupset - you won't know yourself.

[Duck!]

If your stuff is 4600 then it's fully compatible with other 10-sp. stuff. However I'd recommend staying with 4600 shifters, they are actually better than 5700/6700/7900.

[Duck!]

...Also, there is a correction here, my groupset is actually the 4600. The upside to this according to the compatibility matrix from the link above. The Ultegra shifter will probably work with my rear derailleur.

Can't see how you run 10 speed with 4600 shifters.

4600 is 10-sp. The shifters are rebadged 7800 Dura-Ace.

[cyclotaur]

...Also, there is a correction here, my groupset is actually the 4600. The upside to this according to the compatibility matrix from the link above. The Ultegra shifter will probably work with my rear derailleur.

Can't see how you run 10 speed with 4600 shifters.

4600 is 10-sp. The shifters are rebadged 7800 Dura-Ace.

Well I'm confused now !!
So 4600 and 4700 are both 10 speed, but incompatible due to pull ratios.
....and my old Tiagra 9-speed - was that 4500 then ?

Better check that Shimano compatibility link....

[Duck!]

Yes, 9-sp. was 4500 and 4400.

[koshari]

Well I'm confused now !!
So 4600 and 4700 are both 10 speed, but incompatible due to pull ratios.

indeed

Code: Select all

group       speeds      cable pull         RD ratio     cassette pitch
4500           9              2.5               1.7               4.35
4600          10              2.3               1.7               3.95
4700          10              2.8               1.4               3.95

4700 cable pull is actually closest to campag 10 speeds

[marty_one]

Thanks for all the information everyone. I ended up buying replacement 4600 shifters. Chainreaction actually had them in stock. I fear though, if anything else breaks I may have to buy a whole new 11 speed groupset. It appears 10 speed stuff is starting to get hard to come by, only one of the local bike shops that I spoke to actually had the shifters in stock, but they wanted about $360 for them, through chain reaction I only paid $180.

[eeksll]

guessing you can pair the 4700 with 11 speed 105/ultegra/.. shifters, so thats not quite a dead end there?

Haven't had to look for shifters, but 10 speed cassettes and chains are cheap as chips. Just got some for my older road bike.

[Mulger bill]

4600 is 10-sp. The shifters are rebadged 7800 Dura-Ace.

And they are amazing! Thanks for the heads up while I was speccing that build

[Duck!]

guessing you can pair the 4700 with 11 speed 105/ultegra/.. shifters, so thats not quite a dead end there?

Correct, and in that regard the upgrade path is no different to the 8 -> 9 -> not-4700-10-sp. progression where all that's needed to gain the extra gear are chain, cassette & shifters, because the derailleurs talk the same pull ratio.

The only setup where 4700 is truly orphaned is TT/Tri conversion, as the rear derailleur won't play nicely with existing 10-sp. bar-end shifters, and although the 11-sp version uses the right pull ratio the index spacing is too close for use on 10-sp, and like 2nd-gen. 10-sp. can't be switched to friction mode.

[Duck!]

Better check that Shimano compatibility link....

What the charts don't show is the relationship between 7/8/9/10-sp, and road/MTB stuff.

Basically, ALL Shimano stuff road and MTB up to 9-sp, plus road 10-sp except 4700 Tiagra work on a common pull ratio of 1.7:1, meaning the rear derailleur moves 1.7mm for every 1mm of cable pulled, so all you need to match is the shifter and chain to the number of gears in the cassette, because any derailleur will work. Road 11-sp. & 4700 work on a 1.4: 1 ratio, which means more cable pull to achieve the required derailleur travel. At 1.2 & 1.1 respectively, MTB 10 & 11-sp. are their own families that don't play well with others.

[koshari]

Better check that Shimano compatibility link....

What the charts don't show is the relationship between 7/8/9/10-sp, and road/MTB stuff.

Basically, ALL Shimano stuff road and MTB up to 9-sp, plus road 10-sp except 4700 Tiagra work on a common pull ratio of 1.7:1, meaning the rear derailleur moves 1.7mm for every 1mm of cable pulled, so all you need to match is the shifter and chain to the number of gears in the cassette, because any derailleur will work. Road 11-sp. & 4700 work on a 1.4: 1 ratio, which means more cable pull to achieve the required derailleur travel. At 1.2 & 1.1 respectively, MTB 10 & 11-sp. are their own families that don't play well with others.

Interestingly there is likely scope for using a set of tiagra 4700 shifters as a partial upgrade item with an 8 speed setup given that they share the cable pull per shift (AT) 2.8mm.

[Mulger bill]

Better check that Shimano compatibility link....

What the charts don't show is the relationship between 7/8/9/10-sp, and road/MTB stuff.

Basically, ALL Shimano stuff road and MTB up to 9-sp, plus road 10-sp except 4700 Tiagra work on a common pull ratio of 1.7:1, meaning the rear derailleur moves 1.7mm for every 1mm of cable pulled, so all you need to match is the shifter and chain to the number of gears in the cassette, because any derailleur will work. Road 11-sp. & 4700 work on a 1.4: 1 ratio, which means more cable pull to achieve the required derailleur travel. At 1.2 & 1.1 respectively, MTB 10 & 11-sp. are their own families that don't play well with others.

So if I read this right, I can replace the dinged, straightened and almost flogged out 4500 long cage rear mech with a 4600 unit and just tune it to 9x with the limit screws?

[Duck!]

Yes. Bonus with 4600 is that it will give capacity for up to 32T, where the 4500 topped out at 28, even in long form.