Is a TCR really an upgrade??

[Duck!]

Here is how she looks now

I've tightened all bolts now and all seems nice and tight like before, no play.

In terms of the fit, it was done by the shop. When I first got the bike, being my first road bike the stem angled down was too aggressive for me as I was quite overweight and inflexible at the time. I went to the shop and asked to flip the stem and tilt the bars to something more comfortable which it has been that way ever since.

That was about a year or so ago but hadn't had many km since then. Only started riding regularly and seriously in the last 2-3 months aND have lost alot of weight, therefore now am looking for something more aggressive in terms of positioning as my body tells me it can handle it.

I would suggest the shifters are in about the right position relative to the bike, but the bar is rotated too far up; if you draw a straight line across the bar top and the shifter hoods, the shifters "droop" off the bar, creating a hump under your hands, which may increase pressure on the nerves in the heels of your hands, causing discomfort. SRAM shifters are designed to have a basically flat transition off the bar top (Shimano & Campag are slightly dipped), so you need to rotate the bar down so the top is basically flat or very slightly up, and then slide the shifters up the bar to get them back into the same airspace.

Try this: Move the shifters on the bar to get that flat transistion, you should be able to do it without needing to undo the bar tape( but it might need a bit of masaging to keep a snug wrap), sit on the bike in a trainer if you have one, or leaning against a wall or bench to support yourself then loosen the stem faceplate bolts just enough to allow you to move the bar, but not so loose that it falls away under a little bit of weighting. Grip the bar by the hoods how you normally would when riding with your elbows slightly bent, and rotate to an angle where your wrists are at a comfortable angle, close to straight. If the bar is rotated too high, straightening your wrists to a comfortable angle causes you to excessively bend your elbows, which can cause discomfort elsewhere. It's also very difficult to reach the brake levers & shift paddles from the drops. If the bar is too low it can also cause wrist strain, and pull your elbows fully straight, where they then can't absorb road bumps.

[rodneycc]

Yep, great post Tim. Same with my experience with both TCR and Defy. Also don't forget the wheels when comparing. Easy to say the TCR is way better when its got $1k wheels on and the Defy $200 cheapy wheels.

And to the OP. That looks much better now ( hood position etc).

[kx315]

For the record I run the same set of Hadron 625's on both bikes never used the original wheel sets. The TCR was an impulse purchase (dont get me started on what my wife said) it was not based on any marketing hype by Giant. I have not sat down and looked at all of my speeds times and made a comparison between both........I just enjoy the feel and ride of the TCR over the Defy.

[Defy The Odds]

I would suggest the shifters are in about the right position relative to the bike, but the bar is rotated too far up; if you draw a straight line across the bar top and the shifter hoods, the shifters "droop" off the bar, creating a hump under your hands, which may increase pressure on the nerves in the heels of your hands, causing discomfort. SRAM shifters are designed to have a basically flat transition off the bar top (Shimano & Campag are slightly dipped), so you need to rotate the bar down so the top is basically flat or very slightly up, and then slide the shifters up the bar to get them back into the same airspace.

Try this: Move the shifters on the bar to get that flat transistion, you should be able to do it without needing to undo the bar tape( but it might need a bit of masaging to keep a snug wrap), sit on the bike in a trainer if you have one, or leaning against a wall or bench to support yourself then loosen the stem faceplate bolts just enough to allow you to move the bar, but not so loose that it falls away under a little bit of weighting. Grip the bar by the hoods how you normally would when riding with your elbows slightly bent, and rotate to an angle where your wrists are at a comfortable angle, close to straight. If the bar is rotated too high, straightening your wrists to a comfortable angle causes you to excessively bend your elbows, which can cause discomfort elsewhere. It's also very difficult to reach the brake levers & shift paddles from the drops. If the bar is too low it can also cause wrist strain, and pull your elbows fully straight, where they then can't absorb road bumps.

Thanks mate - I think I may have gist of what you mean but could you perhaps post a pic of the ideal position by what you're referring to above. If you dont mind.

I went for a short ride today and it seems ok but I won't know until I do a decent ride

[Duck!]

I don't have a SRAM-equipped bike to use as a reference (as stated previously, Shimano hoods which I use have a pronounced dip in the bar/hood transistion), so here's one I nicked out of the gallery thread:

Disregard the monstercross setup & just note the cockpit; the bar is rotated slightly lower than yours, but the brake levers are a little higher on the bar to give that flat run from the bar top to the hood, ultimately keeping the levers in the same airspace.

[Defy The Odds]

I don't have a SRAM-equipped bike to use as a reference (as stated previously, Shimano hoods which I use have a pronounced dip in the bar/hood transistion), so here's one I nicked out of the gallery thread:

Disregard the monstercross setup & just note the cockpit; the bar is rotated slightly lower than yours, but the brake levers are a little higher on the bar to give that flat run from the bar top to the hood, ultimately keeping the levers in the same airspace.

Thanks mate,

Appreciate you taking the time to find that.

I'll have a play around with the bars over the next few days til I find the most comfortable setup

[MattyK]

This is about the bar and hood angle I would go for... maybe rotated up a fraction from this.

[A_P]

This is about the bar and hood angle I would go for... maybe rotated up a fraction from this.

spot on

this is what you want to avoid

(edit, the image on left )

[Duck!]

I'll have a play around with the bars over the next few days til I find the most comfortable setup

You'll possibly find that as you progressively lower the stem, you may need to slightly twist the bar lower to keep all the comfortable angles in the same relationships.

[Tim]

The TCR was an impulse purchase (dont get me started on what my wife said)

I can relate to that. .
I suspect Rodney can too.
His bikes;
'12 Spec Roub Elite;13 Bianchi Inf CV
13 Giant TCR Adv SL1;13 BMC SLR01
13 Lynskey Helix;13 XACD Ti Di2
14 Giant Defy Adv SL

[kx315]

The TCR was an impulse purchase (dont get me started on what my wife said)

I can relate to that. .
I suspect Rodney can too.
His bikes;
'12 Spec Roub Elite;13 Bianchi Inf CV
13 Giant TCR Adv SL1;13 BMC SLR01
13 Lynskey Helix;13 XACD Ti Di2
14 Giant Defy Adv SL

Ha ha yes I can see

[Defy The Odds]

I'll have a play around with the bars over the next few days til I find the most comfortable setup

You'll possibly find that as you progressively lower the stem, you may need to slightly twist the bar lower to keep all the comfortable angles in the same relationships.

Went for a training ride this morning about 40km to test out the new set up. When I got back I adjusted the bars slightly up and the hoods up as I felt my wrists were pointing down slightly in comparison to my arm position/angle. Went for a quick spin up the street and it feels a bit better.

I suspect this will take a few weeks of trial and error to get spot on, but yeah the process will need to be done again once I lower the stem further.

I feel like the stem is too short also.

As I am progressing, I feel that maybe the bike is a little too small, as I am on the cusp of an XS and a Small. It's my first road bike so it is all a learning experience for me and I am definitely learning a lot.... this forum has been a wonderful source of knowledge and assistance so thank you to yourself and all the others who have contributed !

[g-boaf]

Thanks mate,

Appreciate you taking the time to find that.

I'll have a play around with the bars over the next few days til I find the most comfortable setup

This is how mine (TCR Advanced SL3, built up as an SL1) is set up:

(click for larger image)

The hoods are set up fairly similar to the photo Duck posted. The stem is 110mm -10º. One thing to be wary of, if you get any sort of shoulder or back injury that reduces your flexibility, these aggressive setups will be very hard to live with.
The saddle is pretty high as I have fairly long legs - so I'm not rocking on that even though it is very high up. Fairly similar on my TT bike as well. I sit on that with the two right angles position. Back and legs at a sort of right angle, and arms bent at the elbows with a right angle when I'm on the aero bars.

[Ant_S]

Defy The Odds - just reading through, the stem angle/height & bar/hood angles etc are all pretty personal preference so to speak. As you've discovered it tends to be based on your flexibility, comfort etc. and can be tweaked around. You can even get to changing bars for different amount of reach and more or less drop and so forth.

However I notice you mentioning lengthening the stem and raising the saddle. Saddle height & position fore/aft should really be a function of your leg length/crank setup so that you have optimal knee bend and position over the BB/pedals. It really should be set 'correctly' and not change much irrespective of your handlebar height/angle. Its more about being right for your knees and making maximum power.
The stem is another thing which together with the general top tube length and handlebar reach (how far they curve forwards) should be setup dependant on your bike fit. If your reach is too short and scrunching you up with those bars and that stem then that is an issue but otherwise longer may not be better.

I suppose I'm saying "slamming your stem" is up to you & your flexibility, however raising the saddle to try for more saddle/bar drop and stretching yourself out with a longer stem aren't necessarily good moves as they may mess up your overall fit.

It may not be a bad idea to go back to an LBS and get a 'basic' fit and see what they think? I did a basic $50 wind trainer fit at my LBS and they did some saddle height/position and bar position tweaking and it certainly helped. It was worth the money as obviously its hard to see yourself when you're on the bike and riding!

[Defy The Odds]

Defy The Odds - just reading through, the stem angle/height & bar/hood angles etc are all pretty personal preference so to speak. As you've discovered it tends to be based on your flexibility, comfort etc. and can be tweaked around. You can even get to changing bars for different amount of reach and more or less drop and so forth.

However I notice you mentioning lengthening the stem and raising the saddle. Saddle height & position fore/aft should really be a function of your leg length/crank setup so that you have optimal knee bend and position over the BB/pedals. It really should be set 'correctly' and not change much irrespective of your handlebar height/angle. Its more about being right for your knees and making maximum power.
The stem is another thing which together with the general top tube length and handlebar reach (how far they curve forwards) should be setup dependant on your bike fit. If your reach is too short and scrunching you up with those bars and that stem then that is an issue but otherwise longer may not be better.

I suppose I'm saying "slamming your stem" is up to you & your flexibility, however raising the saddle to try for more saddle/bar drop and stretching yourself out with a longer stem aren't necessarily good moves as they may mess up your overall fit.

It may not be a bad idea to go back to an LBS and get a 'basic' fit and see what they think? I did a basic $50 wind trainer fit at my LBS and they did some saddle height/position and bar position tweaking and it certainly helped. It was worth the money as obviously its hard to see yourself when you're on the bike and riding!

Hey mate,

What I have learnt over the last few days (I have changed my bar set up 3 times in 2 days) is that it really does seem to be a personal preference and it will change with time as your ability/skill/body changes and adapts. I am trialling a different set up tomorrow morning to see how I feel until I can get the correct mixture of comfort and performance.

In regards to fit, I spoke to a mate of mine who knows someone who is a bike mechanic and has fit up some pretty expensive bikes and some pretty experienced riders. These guys are heading to the tour in Adelaide and so I'll get in touch with the fella once they return and get him to fit me up in regards to saddle height and stem length.

For now though, I'll play around with bar and hood angle til I can find the best position for me.

This forum is fantastic, the advice and depth/detail people have offered is great, and it has been a remarkable help. I am very grateful and appreciative, thank you !

[rodneycc]

Yes owner of many - master of none

[Defy The Odds]

I finally sorted the bar position to what feels like perfect positioning for me, and then as I was about to take it for a spin the bike fell over bending thr rear derailleur hanger. Bike is in the car going to the shop tomorrow as I tried to fix it myself but made it worse possibly. So annoyed.

Anyhow this is how the bars look now. I will hopefully have the bike for the weekend:

[defy1]

Not an expert but that seat position and level just doesn't look right to me. Would be interested to see a pic of you seating on it, with one leg extended at 6oclock position, and one at 3oclock position

[Defy The Odds]

Not an expert but that seat position and level just doesn't look right to me. Would be interested to see a pic of you seating on it, with one leg extended at 6oclock position, and one at 3oclock position

I have had a bike fit done, I'm a short bloke so a bit awkeward. I also have short legs for my height at 6 o'clock I have a slight bend. Either way I will be getting a professional to fit me up in a few weeks

[tez001]

You won't ever get to that slammed look like that tall bastard g boaf then. So why is comfortable for you and only make small tweaks and do a few hundred kms before changing it further. A short ride might feel ok but it's when you're on the bike for longer periods.

To me it looks as though the stem has been dropped and then hoods pointed up to compensate.

[g-boaf]

You won't ever get to that slammed look like that tall bastard g boaf then. So why is comfortable for you and only make small tweaks and do a few hundred kms before changing it further. A short ride might feel ok but it's when you're on the bike for longer periods.

To me it looks as though the stem has been dropped and then hoods pointed up to compensate.

I'm 175cm, so not very tall. Just long legs. I've seen another bike set up with a -17 degree stem, it was a small frame and was ridden by a very short rider. Pretty extreme however, but he was very fit.

[madmacca]

I feel like the stem is too short also.

As I am progressing, I feel that maybe the bike is a little too small, as I am on the cusp of an XS and a Small.

Sounds like you made the right choice - it is easier to make adjustments to a bike that is too small, than it is to adjust one that is too big.

[Defy The Odds]

I feel like the stem is too short also.

As I am progressing, I feel that maybe the bike is a little too small, as I am on the cusp of an XS and a Small.

Sounds like you made the right choice - it is easier to make adjustments to a bike that is too small, than it is to adjust one that is too big.

Didn't think of it this way. True. For now the bike is still comfortable with the stem flipped and a couple of spacers removed... will probably make slight changes over the next 4 weeks so it's not so drastic and then if something doesn't agree with me then I'll know which change it was, and go back

[Defy The Odds]

Just an update, the current setup was tested on a 50km ride yesterday and felt comfortable but I was still yearning for something more aggressive. This morning I slammed the stem and altered the position of the bars and shifters. This is the current setup which will be tested tomorrow:

[fat and old]

Isn't there an expander inside the fork top that needs to be lowered to match the stem level? Is that a consideration on the Defy?