Second but first "proper" road bike?

Carriage
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Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:21 pm

I've gotten back into cycling and have been riding my Reid condor, which has been serviceable but a few things are not ideal and so I'm looking at getting a new bike. I also have a notion of giving crit racing a go as well as continuing my rides for fitness and fun so as much as no bike is ideal for everything, I want to make sure it's suitable. So far I've been having a look at the following bikes.

Trek emonda alr5
Specialized tarmac sl4 sport
Cannondale caad12 105
Giant TCR advanced 2
Merida scultura 4000

So my questions are:
Do these seem a reasonable solution?
Are they too much to risk starting out racing?
Will they be too uncomfortable for longer rides?(personal probably. Probably should compare to current bike and try them)
Is there anything that stands out specwise between them? The prices vary a bit. (I know some are carbon some aluminium)

ironhanglider
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby ironhanglider » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:14 pm

Your Condor will be good enough to learn whether you like crit racing or not.
Don't rush into anything except racing yet.


Cheers,

Cameron

Carriage
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:32 am

I was looking at getting another bike anyway, not just for crits. Do you think I should sort out if I like crits first to narrow my needs? There's also a chance that I give them a go but I'm not fit enough yet.

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Noviss » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:38 pm

I have a CAAD12 105 and whilst I don't know about its suitability for racing it is a solid reliable bike. Be prepared to spend extra on upgrades. The standard tyres (Schwalbe Lugano) I found terrible and changed straight away. I also had an old set of Mavic Krysium wheels which I found better than the Aksiums it came with.

The 52/36 crank can also feel a bit disjointed with the 11-28 cassette. I find when I change down chain rings I also have to go up a couple of cogs on the rear and vice versa. I am waiting for the crank to wear out and I am likely to go to a 53/39 with maybe an 11-32 cassette if I need a bit lower gearing.

If you go with the Cannondale ensure you get the correct size. I had a bike fit after I bought mine and although it is the correct size I need to get a seat post with a larger offset. The seat post is 25.4mm and replacements are not readily available yet.

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A_P
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby A_P » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:12 pm

I have a SL4 pro, i use it for everything. Road race, crits, fondos, peaks challenge events.
A great all rounder in my view. Im sure there are better bikes for 6hr+ rides, but as i do that seldomly i'll compromise.
Descends great, steers quick, good sprinter.
the tarmac sport will have the same geometry in a lower grade carbon.
the TCR would be my other pick. The emonda might have a less agressive fit.

ironhanglider
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby ironhanglider » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:13 pm

Carriage wrote:I was looking at getting another bike anyway, not just for crits. Do you think I should sort out if I like crits first to narrow my needs? There's also a chance that I give them a go but I'm not fit enough yet.
Ok first off how will you know when you are 'fit enough' to race? Don't wait. Summer time is the best time of year to race so get out there and start. Join a club, do some of their training rides to introduce yourself and learn a bit about riding in bunches, go and watch a race, and then have a go. Yes you might be dropped after the first 10 min. But they will be a great 10 min! Racing is the best way to get yourself up to speed. Otherwise something else will come up and before you know it the only racing on will be on the road in the depths of winter.

It is not possible to have one bike that is good at everything. Eg. Race bikes are not great for carrying the shopping home; disc brakes are becoming more popular, but are not permitted in road racing etc. Whilst many people (like me) really enjoy racing, those who do race are outnumbered 100:1 by people who don't.

On that basis if you enjoy racing, your next bike should be suitable for that purpose, if you don't then it doesn't need to be.

Cheers,

Cameron

Carriage
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:38 pm

So I had a chat with someone at my club. Comparing himself to me on a similar ride and the fact he races D grade (and in his own words uncompetitive) I'm not fit enough yet.

I'll have to have a think about the bike. Two main reasons I was thinking about a new one were getting modern bars/levers so that the hoods are actually comfortable and a lower bottom gear as 40-28 is a bit steep around Eltham. It's a decent chunk of cash though and I don't think it's worth getting something in between.

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:16 pm

The selection of bike is fine but you should start racing now, take the initial phase as a learning phase where you generally hang towards the back and try and learn about racing rules / behaviour / etiquette.

In the meantime, keep riding and training on the Reid Condor and when the time is right, all of the bikes you listed will be an upgrade. I would tend towards carbon fiber rather than aluminium.
Cycling is in my BNA

Carriage
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:53 pm

So a bit has happened since I created this thread. I've given E grade at SKCC 3 Sundays ago and then D grade a go two Sundays ago. I was dropped 12min into the D grade but I enjoyed myself and was planning on going again yesterday but on Saturday I damaged my front rim. Given that I don't really think it's worth spending on a new wheel for a cheap bike and I was thinking of getting a new bike anyway, I spent the rest of the weekend looking at bikes.

I started with the Emonda and it felt different to my Reid in terms of handling as well as comfort. It felt rather upright though compared to what I was expecting even with there only being a single 5mm spacer below the stem. I expected the store also had Cannondale but I was directed to one of their other stores. The other I picked didn't have a CAAD12 in 52cm. I then went instead to try a TCR. The store I went to wasn't particularly helpful and I tried a medium out at the salesman's suggestion and found it quite upright. After having a look later at Giant's size guide and the geometry online, I feel I should have been on the small. After trying the Giant I went to a Specialized dealer to try a Tarmac but they didn't have a 52cm model to try but suggested I go get a feel for the geometry at the Specialized Demo day on Sunday. I had only time to try one more store for the day and went to another Cannondale dealer, which also didn't have a Caad12 to try. I did try the salesman's personal Supersix Evo 2016 as he said there were some available in my size. He'd slammed the stem so it was quite aggressive and I think I would have preferred somewhere in between it and the Emonda. Given that he'd even changed to a smaller top cap I kind of liked the frame geometry if it was set up a bit higher.

On Sunday I tried an Allez and the Tarmac at the Specialized day. Both had a decent number of spacers under the stem and seemed good if not a little high, so probably the kind of frame I'm after. They were much higher spec than what I'm looking at but in checking the stack and reach they were similar to the Cannondale. I also went and tried the Merida but that was a less aggressive frame that I didn't like as much and the brakes weren't as nice.

Given the price I was given for the 2016 supersix evo 105($1900), I ordered one but this morning I was called back and it turns out that the salesman misread the system and there aren't any available so I'm back to decision making.

At the moment I think it's between the Tarmac, the CAAD12 and the TCR which on list price are all much more expensive compared to what I thought I was spending. I feel I should try and hunt down a small TCR and a CAAD12 to try.

In terms of components, the Tarmac has a Praxis crankset and tiagra brakes (no cartridge shoes, but not big $ to fix), the TCR has full 105 but an alloy steerer (which isn't really a problem?) and the CAAD12 has tektro brakes and their special crankset (mid compact) and arguably nicer wheels (not that I could tell really). The CAAD12 has also reviewed well. The TCR was offered at $2000 instead of $2300 but I don't know if that store had a small and I wasn't too impressed with their help/support.The Tarmac and CAAD12 I assume won't move far from $2400 and $2500 respectively. At this stage I feel like the TCR is the best option if I can find a small one at $2000 but if it's $2300 perhaps one of the other frames is better and worth the minor difference in components?

Does anyone recommend a good Giant dealer in Melbourne?

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby P!N20 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:05 pm

Carriage wrote:Does anyone recommend a good Giant dealer in Melbourne?
Saint Cloud

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g-boaf
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:10 pm

When you say "feeling upright", what are you looking for? Are you looking for a down-angled 140mm stem and sloping your saddle down (to a limit) as well?

I doubt you'll find these configurations in bike shops on their display bikes, those are not the normal things because they don't tend to appeal to 'newbie' riders, for want of a better term. They tend to be used by riders who are already extremely fit and pretty flexible. Take a look at some of the race bikes you see in the pro teams these days, there are some pretty extreme setups there. I can ride a bike with that sort of setup no problem, but newer riders will probably find it uncomfortable.

The configurations found on the shop floors would tend to be what the shops think they can sell. I'd suggest waiting until the bike you want becomes available.

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:20 pm

No not overly agressive, I think somewhere between the slammed supersix with stock stem and the Emonda (which has the same stack/reach as a Roubaix fwiw). It's just that the more aggressive frames can be raised a bit but the more relaxed can't be lowered. Also my Reid had a really weird and overly aggressive position for a while so my frame of reference is weird.

These are the figures that I pulled from the websites
Emonda Stack: 547 Reach:379
Tarmac Stack:526 Reach:386
TCR Stack:529 Reach:378 (small)
TCR Stack:545 Reach:383 (Med)
Supersix Stack:526 Reach:384
Scultura Stack:555 Reach:386

I think I'm just noticing these minor differences. Obviously how they've set it up changes it too.

I'm not after anything extreme but I expect most of my riding will be shorter club rides, training and racing but I'd still like to be able to do longer rides even if it's not the most comfortable (though not hell).

Carriage
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:38 pm

My recollection is growing hazier with time but I suppose what I notice is the difference in how I need to bend my elbows to have my upper body where it seems to suit when I go harder than trundling along.

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:22 pm

Perhaps the better solution is to get a frameset and build up a bike from scratch. Go to a known reputable bike fitter who does those builds. Then you can get exactly what you want.

Maybe some shops have older framesets of the higher end bikes left over? Maybe take a look at all the options.

If you were in Sydney I'd put you in touch with someone who could do such a bike build for you.

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:34 pm

Maybe. Perhaps I'm overanalysing things and being a tight arse about it. Any of the three that I'm leaning towards would probably be fine. It's not as if I'm a highly experienced very fit rider looking for marginal gains. I just want to make sure I don't waste my 2-2.5k

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby ironhanglider » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:42 pm

In the meantime I can lend you a front wheel...
(In fact lots of people can, because front wheels rarely die, and wheels are often bought in pairs)

I'm glad you've done a couple of races and liked it.

I can't help you much with choice, you have to get the one that appeals to you most. Frankly it is a competitive market so there are no great differences in overall value (unless there is some sort of clearance sale on). Some companies do seem to charge a lot for the stickers, but on the other hand everyone else will also see the stickers, and it is the stickers and paint job that make the biggest difference to most punters who can't reliably pick a difference in performance.

FWIW if I were to buy a new bike primarily for racing it would be a Chinese open mould carbon bike that I would't cry over if it got broken. I would then put a 10spd groupset on it due to the availability of cheap wheels, and compatibility with my existing ones. I don't feel the need to be sentimental over a race bike, particularly since I don't aspire to great heights, and I'm not prepared to buy all the marginal equipment gains if I'm not prepared to do all the fundamentals, like training, coaching, power meters etc.

The performance per dollar curve is pretty steep at the start, but it gets very flat pretty quickly.

Cheers,

Cameron

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Defy The Odds
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Defy The Odds » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:05 am

How did you find the Supersix Evo in terms of sharpness in handling and complacency?

I was considering an upgrade to one.

Of the bikes you listed, the TCR is a popular bike for this kind of work but as was mentioned earlier, I'd be pretty nervous racing a brand new bike and spending $2.5k for me is also an expensive exercise, so cannot afford a crash.

Good luck with the decision mate!

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Rural Rider » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:46 am

Tarmac SL4 will be my next bike (And was on your list) - I've already got the Allez which is based on the same Frame Geometry as the Tarmac - cracking Bikes and I don't think you'd go wring with one either for all sorts of riding.

Cheers RR
2017 Trek Emonda SL6
2016 Specialized Allez e5 Sport

Carriage
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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:50 am

How did you find the Supersix Evo in terms of sharpness in handling and complacency?
About the Supersix, honestly they're not things I have been able to tell much difference on, but that could more be me. The bike went where I steered it but it's not as if other bikes don't do that for me. It's definitely a quicker steering geometry than my Reid though. Also, if you mean compliance, again I couldn't tell that much as I didn't take it on too bumpy a road.

I have actually been in two minds at times about the cost. What you've said is true but at the same time to go cheaper would either be new and not that much cheaper or second hand and potentially end up down a rabbit hole of unexpected issues. At least if it started with me I know what's going on. Also, I didn't really know my size so second hand was kind of out of the picture. There's also the fact that crashing won't necessarily trash the whole bike even though it should be treated as a possibility.

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Re: Second but first "proper" road bike?

Postby Carriage » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:00 pm

I ended up getting a TCR on Thursday. I went back and tried the small and it was much more what I was after. The fact that the shop was doing it for $1999 instead of $2299 list price was a big factor too. Thanks for the help everyone.

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