Good thing I cheated and counted the parts off the spares catalogueMichaelB wrote:If they were disc calipers, yes (done it many times in my repurposing Avid Trail calipers to run Mineral oil ....). Otherwise you are SOOL.trainspotter wrote:I've just disassembled my Super Record calipers and found these to have 38 parts for the front dual pivot, and 33 for the rear single pivot caliper, so your rough count is pretty accurate.Duck! wrote: By my rough count, a hydro disc caliper contains 14 individual parts, vs around 40 in a rim caliper.
Can you put them back together for me now?
Disc Vs Rim Braking System
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby trainspotter » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:00 pm
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby djw47 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:26 pm
I've had a few caliper brake road bikes and gone through brand new sets of brake pads in a single ride many times when it's wet and I'm descending ($25 Shimano pads seemed to dissolve in the rain). I've also descended down steep gradients in the wet with virtually no stopping ability because the calipers were useless. I've also worn through expensive rims and had to replace them because the caliper brakes act like sandpaper.Comedian wrote:MichaelB wrote: Yes, you're right. I've had only two disc brake bikes. I've got one hydraulic rim brake bike. Some troubles I've had with those bikes.
- Alfine caliper leaking. - resulting in big noise and no stopping. Replace whole unit. 3x replacement pad sets in 10k
- Avid brakes on mountain bike. Dragging, squealing, ticking. Told no way of fixing - just replace both brake systems completely (2.5k covered). This is as yet unresolved.
- Hydraulic rim brake - caliper leaking. Warranty replacement of the entire system with three weeks off road.
I've done about 60k on the road bikes which is probably 6x more than the three bikes above. In that time I've replaced maybe 3 or 4 sets of pads? No cables. No parts, no callipers. Yes, you're right I haven't used discs much. But can you see why I'm not rushing to the technology? I haven't got time for that stuff!
I've only had one disc brake road bike and had zero problems with it (so far). I can stop easily and consistently in the wet. I can use expensive, light carbon rims without fear of grinding or delaminating them on steep descents. It's a no-brainer if you don't race that disc brakes are the way to go. It's not a fad, it's an actual, real benefit and an improvement on what we've lived with up to now. Anybody who rides gradients on a road bike should consider moving to discs.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Toyopet » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:14 pm
I would also add the following, after having my hydraulic disc-braked road bike for a year and half now, putting 16,000 trouble free kilometres on it so far.
*Unsurpassable modulation and control.
*Auto-adjustment/alignment of pads - on hydraulic disc brake systems - so no need to stuff around with brake pad adjustments every so often.
*Less input pressure - which is great for tired or arthritic hands and fingers. (Easier and nicer braking in any case)
*Very easy to change pads, which I’ve done a couple of times now.
*Little or no maintenance requirements. I bought a bleed kit just in case - a waste of money as I’ve not needed it, despite transporting the bike on its side and upside down at times.
I don’t race and never will, so went for the better system - no matter what UCI says.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Patt0 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:10 pm
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby eeksll » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:31 pm
Still better than rim brakes in the wet though.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Ivanerrol » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:59 pm
The hybrid brakes perform much better than my roadie with Tektro rim Mini's.
The Specialized front strut has the facility for disk. I went and bought a disk wheel with rotor and was going to install it. Just need to buy the caliper and brake lever assembly. LBS mechanic advised me to go cable.
I haven't installed it as yet. On reflection most braking I do is with the rear. I've been OTH a couple of times ... so I'm wary of front braking.
I have needed to replace the brake (and derailleur) cables on two of my bikes. The cable had corrosion due to lack of lubrication (by Previous owners) and had expanded within the cabling tubing making the operation of the brakes stiff. Needed to buy new cables.
When the International committees eventually allow disks on road racers then the disk vs rim subject will become moot.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby bychosis » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:44 am
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby find_bruce » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:59 am
I use my hybrid commuter to tow my not so little man - 15kg of weehoo & 20+kg of boy so I decided to increase front disc from 160mm to 180mm - first time out I nearly put myself over the bars.bychosis wrote:I've been riding my roadie more lately, it has rim brakes. This morning I hopped on my MTB for the first time since December, it has hydraulic disc brakes. I had to readjust my braking fingers to the additional power and control. Was surprised how different it felt, and that was in the dry. Perhaps there were other factors in play such at geometry and tyre contact patch. I usually lift the rear wheel a bit braking hard on the roadie so on the balance of that think that I will start looking for a disc roadie sooner than I had thought. Besides, I'm getting bored with the fleet I think.
Funnily enough I don't have an issue swapping between the commuter & the roadie. My next commuter is likely to be a disc brake drop bar gravel grinder
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby bychosis » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:43 pm
Normally when I switch from one to the other more frequently I don't notice it so much, it's just been a while since I've been on the MTBfind_bruce wrote:Funnily enough I don't have an issue swapping between the commuter & the roadie. My next commuter is likely to be a disc brake drop bar gravel grinder
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby eeksll » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:51 pm
however I don't notice too much difference between the road bike (campag) and flat bar commuter bb7 180mm (or 185) front disc rotor (rim brakes rear).
But compared to the 105 5600 brakes on the old road bike, now the dry weather commuter, scarily different.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby eeksll » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:01 pm
as you have found out, braking on a bicycle is not the same as braking on a car. Slamming on the front will require moving your weight as far back as possible.Ivanerrol wrote:I haven't installed it as yet. On reflection most braking I do is with the rear. I've been OTH a couple of times ... so I'm wary of front braking.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:32 pm
That's got as much to do with the tyres being around four times the width as anything else......eeksll wrote:I do notice the extra power with the hydraulics on the mtb. Just as well the sitting position is all different otherwise OTB I would go.
...
But compared to the 105 5600 brakes on the old road bike, now the dry weather commuter, scarily different.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Comedian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:56 pm
I've really not got anything to report though as I don't even recall using my brakes... Or maybe their discs were the cause of me riding them off my wheel?
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby biker jk » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:26 pm
Surely there was a mass pile up caused by a rider just touching their overpowerful disc brakes and you had your head sliced off at the neck?Comedian wrote:I rode with a small group on Tuesday. 50% of the 4 people had disc brakes.
I've really not got anything to report though as I don't even recall using my brakes... Or maybe their discs were the cause of me riding them off my wheel?
As an aside, my group ride last Saturday had half of the eight riders with disc brakes. Not only did we survive but I averaged over 30kmh and made it back first. Mind you, that would likely have been the case riding my rim brake bike on this flat route so I don't understand your point.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Comedian » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:38 am
Sorry.. I was being silly. My point was - no one even used the brakes.biker jk wrote:Surely there was a mass pile up caused by a rider just touching their overpowerful disc brakes and you had your head sliced off at the neck?Comedian wrote:I rode with a small group on Tuesday. 50% of the 4 people had disc brakes.
I've really not got anything to report though as I don't even recall using my brakes... Or maybe their discs were the cause of me riding them off my wheel?
As an aside, my group ride last Saturday had half of the eight riders with disc brakes. Not only did we survive but I averaged over 30kmh and made it back first. Mind you, that would likely have been the case riding my rim brake bike on this flat route so I don't understand your point.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Comedian » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:37 pm
He said he was contemplating buying another bike with disc brakes and I may have rolled my eyes. So I had a look at his bike, and it was suffering from the typical Shimano problem. The lever throw isn't great, and then a good portion of what was available was used by bending the callipers. These were the same brakes I had when I was running shimano (ultegra 6700). I had this same experience, when your braking effort goes into bending a calliper it's hard to modulate the brakes because your force is kind of caught up in an intermediary and applied to the wheel in an inconsistent manner.
So, I said ... dude... don't buy a new bike just get some new brakes. I sent him for a ride on my bike (alloy rims, record brakes with 20k). He did a little ride and came back and said "Wow.. they are strong". I'm not sure what he's going to do...
It's another case of Shimano kicking their own goals...
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby biker jk » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:34 pm
I rode my disc brake bike today over 120km or so. It was wet. The disc brakes in the wet are better than the Ultegra 6800 brakes on my Lynskey in the dry by an enormous degree.Comedian wrote:So, I didn't put this in the other thread as it's not related to the UCI thing in anyway. I was talking to a guy with a Ti bike that he had had for many years. It was of course going well.
He said he was contemplating buying another bike with disc brakes and I may have rolled my eyes. So I had a look at his bike, and it was suffering from the typical Shimano problem. The lever throw isn't great, and then a good portion of what was available was used by bending the callipers. These were the same brakes I had when I was running shimano (ultegra 6700). I had this same experience, when your braking effort goes into bending a calliper it's hard to modulate the brakes because your force is kind of caught up in an intermediary and applied to the wheel in an inconsistent manner.
So, I said ... dude... don't buy a new bike just get some new brakes. I sent him for a ride on my bike (alloy rims, record brakes with 20k). He did a little ride and came back and said "Wow.. they are strong". I'm not sure what he's going to do...
It's another case of Shimano kicking their own goals...
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Comedian » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:56 pm
Yes.. I rest my case. That's exactly what I'm saying.. Shimano kicking it's own goals. Make rubbish rim brakes, and then .. but wait we have these new disc brakes here that work heaps better than our rubbish rim brakes. Shimano with a solution to their own problem. If you have a friend with campy brakes, why not ask for a ride one day?biker jk wrote:I rode my disc brake bike today over 120km or so. It was wet. The disc brakes in the wet are better than the Ultegra 6800 brakes on my Lynskey in the dry by an enormous degree.Comedian wrote:So, I didn't put this in the other thread as it's not related to the UCI thing in anyway. I was talking to a guy with a Ti bike that he had had for many years. It was of course going well.
He said he was contemplating buying another bike with disc brakes and I may have rolled my eyes. So I had a look at his bike, and it was suffering from the typical Shimano problem. The lever throw isn't great, and then a good portion of what was available was used by bending the callipers. These were the same brakes I had when I was running shimano (ultegra 6700). I had this same experience, when your braking effort goes into bending a calliper it's hard to modulate the brakes because your force is kind of caught up in an intermediary and applied to the wheel in an inconsistent manner.
So, I said ... dude... don't buy a new bike just get some new brakes. I sent him for a ride on my bike (alloy rims, record brakes with 20k). He did a little ride and came back and said "Wow.. they are strong". I'm not sure what he's going to do...
It's another case of Shimano kicking their own goals...
At any rate.. even if that point is lost, I'd like to remind that I've always said that discs would make sense for people that ride a lot in the rain. Further on that - I've also said that I live in an area where we have so little rain that it discs would be far more of an impost than a benefit. The last time I knowingly went out for a long ride in the rain was New years day 2015 for a century ride. Since then, due to ill health I've only covered about 25,000k and in that 27 months or so I've only had a handful of damp commutes. If there is a training ride on and it's raining.. I just wait a day or do it later when it's dry.
Even if I had discs, I'd still wait until it was dry as riding in the rain is still hard on the rest of the bike, it's more dangerous, and it's just not pleasant. Hence why I sincerely hope that the choice remains so I can have the choice a lighter, simpler, and more responsive bike.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby silentC » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:13 pm
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:50 pm
Comedian wrote:
Yes.. I rest my case. That's exactly what I'm saying.. Shimano kicking it's own goals. Make rubbish rim brakes, and then .. but wait we have these new disc brakes here that work heaps better than our rubbish rim brakes. Shimano with a solution to their own problem. If you have a friend with campy brakes, why not ask for a ride one day?
You have this ar$e about.
Shimano's dual pivot 5800, 6800, 9000 range of calipers are regularly rated as the best out there.
Campy are in trouble here as they are also rans in all classes of brakes.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby biker jk » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:13 pm
That's why I made the comparison of my disc brakes with 6800.warthog1 wrote:Comedian wrote:
Yes.. I rest my case. That's exactly what I'm saying.. Shimano kicking it's own goals. Make rubbish rim brakes, and then .. but wait we have these new disc brakes here that work heaps better than our rubbish rim brakes. Shimano with a solution to their own problem. If you have a friend with campy brakes, why not ask for a ride one day?
You have this ar$e about.
Shimano's dual pivot 5800, 6800, 9000 range of calipers are regularly rated as the best out there.
Campy are in trouble here as they are also rans in all classes of brakes.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Comedian » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:45 pm
Sure ... Link me up.. show me these comparisons of shimano to campy brakes you speak of!warthog1 wrote:Comedian wrote:
Yes.. I rest my case. That's exactly what I'm saying.. Shimano kicking it's own goals. Make rubbish rim brakes, and then .. but wait we have these new disc brakes here that work heaps better than our rubbish rim brakes. Shimano with a solution to their own problem. If you have a friend with campy brakes, why not ask for a ride one day?
You have this ar$e about.
Shimano's dual pivot 5800, 6800, 9000 range of calipers are regularly rated as the best out there.
Campy are in trouble here as they are also rans in all classes of brakes.
When I first saw 11 speed durace.. I said those brakes are a lot better as you could visibly see much less distortion... but I've never ridden one.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby eeksll » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:28 pm
A bit late now that discs are coming out?
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:30 pm
To have a case to rest, you must first be able to make a case, which you cannot do when you have not experienced the product you're dismissing.Comedian wrote:Sure ... Link me up.. show me these comparisons of shimano to campy brakes you speak of!warthog1 wrote:Comedian wrote:
Yes.. I rest my case. That's exactly what I'm saying.. Shimano kicking it's own goals. Make rubbish rim brakes, and then .. but wait we have these new disc brakes here that work heaps better than our rubbish rim brakes. Shimano with a solution to their own problem. If you have a friend with campy brakes, why not ask for a ride one day?
You have this ar$e about.
Shimano's dual pivot 5800, 6800, 9000 range of calipers are regularly rated as the best out there.
Campy are in trouble here as they are also rans in all classes of brakes.
When I first saw 11 speed durace.. I said those brakes are a lot better as you could visibly see much less distortion... but I've never ridden one.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Comedian » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:14 pm
Correct... I have not used the latest Shimano brakes. But - nor have most of the people here ridden campag brakes? I've noted a lack of disclosure about that yet people comment. How many thousands of k's have you ridden with campy brakes?Duck! wrote:To have a case to rest, you must first be able to make a case, which you cannot do when you have not experienced the product you're dismissing.Comedian wrote:Sure ... Link me up.. show me these comparisons of shimano to campy brakes you speak of!warthog1 wrote:
You have this ar$e about.
Shimano's dual pivot 5800, 6800, 9000 range of calipers are regularly rated as the best out there.
Campy are in trouble here as they are also rans in all classes of brakes.
When I first saw 11 speed durace.. I said those brakes are a lot better as you could visibly see much less distortion... but I've never ridden one.
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