Disc Vs Rim Braking System
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:32 am
Continual, excessive cleaning of the rotors basically ensures they're never properly bedded in, so they never operate quietly.
By all means clean them if you are absolutely sure they are contaminated, but otherwise just give the pads a scuff on sandpaper.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:39 am
Depends on what rotors you have. If you have entry level Shimano brakes the rotors are not rated for metallic pad use and you'll likely chew them up with metallic pads.Shelby35 wrote:Which are better resin or metal pads?
However, if you are using Shimano SLX or better (road equivalent is 105?), the metallic pads last longer and ultimately give better braking.
I haven't used resin pads for quite some time. Occasionally I ride on wet and muddy trails in Sydney and resin pads disappear within 20km, leaving me trying to brake with the pad backing material.
if you occasionally ride in wet conditions on the road and your system can use metallic pads, I'd recommend you do. As a bonus, the high-finned Ice-Tech pads seem less prone to accumulating pad dust and road grime stuck on the piston sides, making them more reliable.
When I replace pads in the man-cave I usually pull out the brake cleaner spray and some cotton butds and give the caliper and piston sides a clean. Having stuck pistons that won't retract is a drag (pun intended).
Does that help?
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:59 am
I've never, ever (ever) had that problem.Duck! wrote:Continual, excessive cleaning of the rotors basically ensures they're never properly bedded in, so they never operate quietly.
Cleaning is basically spraying the rotor with Super Cheap Auto or equivalent hydrocarbon disc rotor cleaning spray and wiping off with a soft *clean* rag.
Bedding in is wearing in the surface of the rotor to match the surface of the pad (and vice-versa). The transfer of pad material embedded into the rotor surface is minimal, and in any case minimally removed (if at all) by the above process. When I swap wheels I swap pads as well, keeping front and rear separate in very clearly labelled boxes. I do not then need to bed the pads in again each time I swap wheels. Learned that trick the hard way.
Scuffing the pad surface with an abrasive material usually requires repeating the bedding-in process to a greater or lesser degree in my experience, as the pads are no longer matched to the rotor. This is OK, preferable to glazed pads, but an unavoidable consequence.
In my experience, contamination is a more frequent cause of noise than glazed pads.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:24 am
Deore is the entry point for metal pad options.trailgumby wrote:Depends on what rotors you have. If you have entry level Shimano brakes the rotors are not rated for metallic pad use and you'll likely chew them up with metallic pads.Shelby35 wrote:Which are better resin or metal pads?
However, if you are using Shimano SLX or better (road equivalent is 105?), the metallic pads last longer and ultimately give better braking.
Depends on what factors are used to determine "better". Resin pads are a softer compound, which gives better initial bite, at the expense of some modulation, and can be quieter, unless glazed or wet. The extra bite is good in cold weather or when the brakes are relatively infrequently used, where the brake remains cool. On the downside, the soft compound is prone to rapid wear in bad weather, and also less tolerant of heat, resulting in glazed pads, which are then noisy and ineffective - often mistaken for contamination.
Metal pads, being harder, offer less initial bite, but more overall stopping power, with better modulation. They're more resistant to wear in foul conditions and more heat tolerant; in fact they actually need some heat to work properly, and can feel very vague and ineffective when very cold.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:13 pm
Thanks for the clarification.Duck! wrote:Deore is the entry point for metal pad options.
OK, that goes some way to explaining our differing points of view. Cheers.Duck! wrote:On the downside, the soft compound is prone to rapid wear in bad weather, and also less tolerant of heat, resulting in glazed pads, which are then noisy and ineffective - often mistaken for contamination.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Patt0 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:52 pm
I have found resin more than adequate on road with 160mm discs.
Anyone try the resin pads that are 4 pairs for $8 on alibaba? I only go through 2 sets of pads (2x13.50) a year so not sure I need to experiment
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby MichaelB » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:55 pm
Stick to the good ones. I do. I think my life is worth a bit more, and brakes are not really the place to be saving money...
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Bunged Knee » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:16 pm
I bought it from alibaba for that price months ago. But it's only good for a few kms and after that, then it squeals. Not good for cheap price. I put the proper Shimano brand and it gets back to normal braking.Patt0 wrote: Anyone try the resin pads that are 4 pairs for $8 on alibaba? I only go through 2 sets of pads (2x13.50) a year so not sure I need to experiment
Stay away from cheap alibaba disc brake pads. Not worth it, unless you want it as warning bell replacement.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby TheWall » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:16 pm
Sounds like a pretty good argument for discs...MichaelB wrote:
Stick to the good ones. I do. I think my life is worth a bit more, and brakes are not really the place to be saving money...
Rode my older bike (ultra rim brakes) down some steep descents today....
Really hoping my disc brake bike is back for next weekends adventure!
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:26 pm
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Shelby35 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:07 pm
Currently using shimano rt99 disc and have the original resin pads that came with the bike and was looking at changing them soon might give the metal one as try.
trailgumby wrote:Depends on what rotors you have. If you have entry level Shimano brakes the rotors are not rated for metallic pad use and you'll likely chew them up with metallic pads.Shelby35 wrote:Which are better resin or metal pads?
However, if you are using Shimano SLX or better (road equivalent is 105?), the metallic pads last longer and ultimately give better braking.
I haven't used resin pads for quite some time. Occasionally I ride on wet and muddy trails in Sydney and resin pads disappear within 20km, leaving me trying to brake with the pad backing material.
if you occasionally ride in wet conditions on the road and your system can use metallic pads, I'd recommend you do. As a bonus, the high-finned Ice-Tech pads seem less prone to accumulating pad dust and road grime stuck on the piston sides, making them more reliable.
When I replace pads in the man-cave I usually pull out the brake cleaner spray and some cotton butds and give the caliper and piston sides a clean. Having stuck pistons that won't retract is a drag (pun intended).
Does that help?
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby MichaelB » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:08 am
Never done the 1st point, and not suffered any issues. Even changed pads and not done anything else (no cleaning etc) and not noticed any difference compared to when I did do it in the past. Maybe slightly quicker bedding in ?trailgumby wrote: .... When I swap wheels I swap pads as well, keeping front and rear separate in very clearly labelled boxes. I do not then need to bed the pads in again each time I swap wheels. Learned that trick the hard way.
...
In my experience, contamination is a more frequent cause of noise than glazed pads.
re the 2nd point, I'd agree there.
What I'd also add is that if pads 'glaze' with one setup, it may not be the pads, it can be the disc. Had this happen to me with Shimano finned resin pads & Avid HSX front rotor. Been down this particular descent many times with no issues on other discs (same pads) and in same conditions.
Changed the disc to an Ice Tech RT68 (same size) and chalk & cheese.
Unless you are a MTB'er, I've never had an issue with pads glazing (apart from above) and that includes descents down the Umbrail Pass, La Plagne, Cormet de Roseland, Col du Pre etc. Resin pads work really well, and Ice Tech discs are my one and only type now.
Not the cheapest, but they WORK !!
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby hamishm » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:38 am
What's that in RT-xx numbers? Thanks.Duck! wrote:Deore is the entry point for metal pad options.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:34 pm
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby kb » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:36 pm
Currently trying out SwissStop EXOTherm 34. Feel slightly better than the previous Shimano but not a savingtrailgumby wrote:I don't bother with non-Shimano disc pads. The savings aren't worth it.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby trailgumby » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:21 pm
I'm curious... Finned?kb wrote:Currently trying out SwissStop EXOTherm 34. Feel slightly better than the previous Shimano but not a savingtrailgumby wrote:I don't bother with non-Shimano disc pads. The savings aren't worth it.
I have the SwissStop blue pads on my roadie and they're quite good. They weren't a saving either.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby outnabike » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:00 pm
So off to the bike shop, Ivanhoe cycles in Hallam. It is a big store with an active repair section.
The front brake is a mech disc.....no pads in stock. Rear brakes are Deore XL calipers with rim pads. No pads in stock in Shimano. Shimano go for around $20-25-00 for rim pads but the after market ones in stock are $15-00 a set.
I rode 20 klm round trip and went away empty handed. I cant believe a shop this large has no stock of these basic components.They have heaps of Giants, Cannondales etc and they must just cut up bits of old Dunlop tyres or something.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:56 pm
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby MichaelB » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:42 am
Yep, the EXOtherm are the finned version.trailgumby wrote:I'm curious... Finned?kb wrote:Currently trying out SwissStop EXOTherm 34. Feel slightly better than the previous Shimano but not a savingtrailgumby wrote:I don't bother with non-Shimano disc pads. The savings aren't worth it.
I have the SwissStop blue pads on my roadie and they're quite good. They weren't a saving either.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Mububban » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:49 am
For those with carbon wheels and rim brakes - exactly how fast does one need to go downhill before heat becomes an issue? Would a chump like me be fine on them? Or should I look for wheels with an alloy brake track?
My next bike will be a lightweight bike so I can punish myself in the hills. Although I love my discs, the lightest options are currently rim brake bikes. And hills means descents (the Perth hills eg coming down Gt Eastern Hwy). I'm no daredevil so will likely descend cautiously rather than tuck down low for ultimate speed, and I wouldn't ride it in the wet.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Duck! » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:36 pm
You'll tend get long lever travel, especially the first time after the bike has been parked, as the pads will retract into the caliper. They'll also get noisy as the spacer spring or worse, the backing plate 'cos you've worn the pad material off! - contacts the rotor. A quick glance into the caliper will indicate how worn they are. Recommended minimum thickness is generally around 1mm.Mububban wrote:I've only done about 1500km on my disc brake bike so far. You can see the brake pads on a rim brake bike to judge remaining lifespan. What's the obvious sign that new pads are required?
It's not about how fast you go, it's about how fast you don't go! The enemy of carbon rims is brake dragging. You're better off staying off them, and jumping hard on them when you need to slow down. The composite layup is an insulator to an extent, so heat takes a little while to build up, but on the flip side once the rim is heated it doesn't release the heat very well. So a short hard grab will result in a high surface temperature, but the heat won't penetrate into the core. Dragging the brake will keep driving heat into the core of the layup, and it will stay there, build up and melt the rim.For those with carbon wheels and rim brakes - exactly how fast does one need to go downhill before heat becomes an issue? Would a chump like me be fine on them? Or should I look for wheels with an alloy brake track?
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:52 pm
This should really apply to the use of any rim brake. Dragging the brakes is bad in any situation regardless of the rim construction.Duck! wrote: It's not about how fast you go, it's about how fast you don't go! The enemy of carbon rims is brake dragging. You're better off staying off them, and jumping hard on them when you need to slow down. The composite layup is an insulator to an extent, so heat takes a little while to build up, but on the flip side once the rim is heated it doesn't release the heat very well. So a short hard grab will result in a high surface temperature, but the heat won't penetrate into the core. Dragging the brake will keep driving heat into the core of the layup, and it will stay there, build up and melt the rim.
There really shouldn't be any concern for keeping the speed in check on a straight descent. Falling off at 50 kmhr is going to be just as painful as falling off at 80 kmhr.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby kb » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:45 am
Yep, also finned. Similar differences to the SwissStop BXP vs Shimano - a touch less grabby but more modulated. Maybe stop just a touch better on full squeeze. I'd recommend them but just got a notice of a recalltrailgumby wrote:I'm curious... Finned?kb wrote:Currently trying out SwissStop EXOTherm 34. Feel slightly better than the previous Shimano but not a savingtrailgumby wrote:I don't bother with non-Shimano disc pads. The savings aren't worth it.
I have the SwissStop blue pads on my roadie and they're quite good. They weren't a saving either.
!stop-ride/stop-sale advisory for SwissStop EXOTherm type disc brake pads, due to potential separation of the friction compound from the backplate.
Still waiting on the L02A pads - been 5 weeks. Sigh.
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Re: Disc Vs Rim Braking System
Postby Trevtassie » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:31 am
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