Disc Vs Rim Braking System

[P!N20]

Cables go rusty & fill up with crud

Ha ha, wut? No they don't.

[Duck!]

Believe it.

[Comedian]

Cables go rusty & fill up with crud, and need periodic adjustment for pad wear. Hydraulics are impervious to crud in the lines, and adjust themselves for pad wear. You don't need to do anything until you replace the pads, then you just push the pistons back in, pop in tbe new pads & away you go until the next pad replacement. Can't get less complex than that.

Assuming the seals don't spring a leak, or the hoses, of they get a bubble in the line, or a master cylinder springs a leak, or a piston gets stuck, or the pads wear unevenly, or the rotor goes out of round, or a hose gets damaged ....

[Comedian]

Cables go rusty & fill up with crud

Ha ha, wut? No they don't.

Not in QLD they don't...

[Comedian]

I don't have these problems with the V brakes on my hybrid. The brakes on that bike work. As I expect them to. And I clean them exactly the same way.

Coming from left field, try mounting your road bike wheels in the hybrid (I presume you can't fit the hybrid wheels on the road bike) and see if the problem follows the rims.

The only other thought is that the brifters might not match the brakes (pull wise) - there's very little adjustment one can do on modern calipers (unlike cantis, which have lots of opportunities for getting it wrong ) How much pad-to-rim clearance do you have?

I'm always bemused by hearing of people with this sort of problem: my c. 1995 dual pivot brakes (Daytona FWIW) on similarly ancient rims will happily do "stoppies" on dry, clean tarmac (and lock up on anything sub-optimal).

This is me. My caliper brakes work really really well. Great modulation, more than enough force wet or dry on the alloys. I've got one set of CRP wheels and they certainly stop well in the dry, no problems on the biggest hills around BNE. In nearly four years they have only been ridden in the rain a handful of times and they seemed fine. In 70k I've replaced a few sets of pads. That's it. No worn out wheels, calipers, or even cables... How can brakes serve me better than this?

I've got a feeling that people who have problems with rim brakes because they have a rubbish set up are going to buy a disc braked bike and expect it to be all beer and skittles. I think there will be good and bad like all things made by humans.

If we all were still riding brakes like I had on my ten speed then I'd be bang up for disc brakes. On that beast if the humidity got about 60% you couldn't stop.. but those days are gone.

[BJL]

So Shimano 105 5700 setup is rubbish? The brakes and levers on my hybrid are whatever the manufacturer put on there. If anything is going to be rubbish, it's the hybrid but they are clearly much better than my road bike. And the shifting is much better too. None of this hidden cables with tight corners friction introducing rubbish. Having cables visible out front doesn't bother me.

Say what you want but my hybrid with rim brakes and whatever mix of parts Specialized deemed fit to supply works much better than my road bike with full 105 5700 groupset. Maybe I should go back to 5600 for better performance. The only common element lately in this thread seems to be that older gear works better than the latest and greatest crap being dished out to us now.

And judging by a mate of mine with a new Giant road bike with disc brakes, having had it back to the shop a few times but still noisy with the pad on one side wearing a lot more than the other and considering going back to rim brakes, I guess that disc brakes are included in my above assessment.

[Nobody]

Say what you want but my hybrid with rim brakes and whatever mix of parts Specialized deemed fit to supply works much better than my road bike with full 105 5700 groupset.

Good V brakes are the best rim brakes available IMO. I've been on my 180/160mm cable disc road bike with sintered pad on the front for some time and got on my wet bike today with an Avid Utimate V brake, SD-7 lever and Lifeline Professional pads on the front. I was taken back with the difference in dry braking power. Not a fair comparison as I ride and brake on the hoods of the road bike and sintered pads don't have the best initial bite. But that's probably how most people ride (on the hoods) and why people think they have problems. This is why hydros on road bikes make some degree of sense.

[silentC]

And judging by a mate of mine with a new Giant road bike with disc brakes, having had it back to the shop a few times but still noisy with the pad on one side wearing a lot more than the other and considering going back to rim brakes, I guess that disc brakes are included in my above assessment.

One must be careful not to make a judgement based on a sample size of 1...

[eeksll]

So Shimano 105 5700 setup is rubbish? The brakes and levers on my hybrid are whatever the manufacturer put on there. If anything is going to be rubbish, it's the hybrid but they are clearly much better than my road bike. And the shifting is much better too. None of this hidden cables with tight corners friction introducing rubbish. Having cables visible out front doesn't bother me.

Say what you want but my hybrid with rim brakes and whatever mix of parts Specialized deemed fit to supply works much better than my road bike with full 105 5700 groupset. Maybe I should go back to 5600 for better performance. The only common element lately in this thread seems to be that older gear works better than the latest and greatest crap being dished out to us now.

And judging by a mate of mine with a new Giant road bike with disc brakes, having had it back to the shop a few times but still noisy with the pad on one side wearing a lot more than the other and considering going back to rim brakes, I guess that disc brakes are included in my above assessment.

if you read my post, my 5600 brakes/shifter combo are not good, in fact scared I would not stop kind of "not good"

my avid sd7 lever / standard tektro mini v-brakes where miles better in the wet.

5600 had koolstop salmon pads both front and back. v-brake setup had the koolstop tectonic pads (2/3 black, 1/3 salmon) front and whatever came with bike rear pads.

[BJL]

My apologies.

I did read your post but sometimes my brain goes astray when typing. A 5600 groupset is reputed to be better than the 5700 for the fact that it was the last not to have hidden cables and therefore better shifting. These days they used coated cables and whatever but why fix what wasn't broken?

So I'm surprised to hear that the 5600 isn't all that great either. I wonder how far back we have to go before we get anything decent?

[Comedian]

So Shimano 105 5700 setup is rubbish? The brakes and levers on my hybrid are whatever the manufacturer put on there. If anything is going to be rubbish, it's the hybrid but they are clearly much better than my road bike. And the shifting is much better too. None of this hidden cables with tight corners friction introducing rubbish. Having cables visible out front doesn't bother me.

Say what you want but my hybrid with rim brakes and whatever mix of parts Specialized deemed fit to supply works much better than my road bike with full 105 5700 groupset. Maybe I should go back to 5600 for better performance. The only common element lately in this thread seems to be that older gear works better than the latest and greatest crap being dished out to us now.

And judging by a mate of mine with a new Giant road bike with disc brakes, having had it back to the shop a few times but still noisy with the pad on one side wearing a lot more than the other and considering going back to rim brakes, I guess that disc brakes are included in my above assessment.

if you read my post, my 5600 brakes/shifter combo are not good, in fact scared I would not stop kind of "not good"

my avid sd7 lever / standard tektro mini v-brakes where miles better in the wet.

5600 had koolstop salmon pads both front and back. v-brake setup had the koolstop tectonic pads (2/3 black, 1/3 salmon) front and whatever came with bike rear pads.

I noticed a big change when I went from ultegra brakes to campy. When I squeezed on the shimano brakes I noticed that a good bit of the force went into bending the caliper rather than pushing onto the rim. Sorry.

[Thoglette]

There's about 2-3mm clearance between the pads and the rims. I've adjusted it that way as I prefer to pull the levers back a little further before engaging the brakes too much. They were adjusted a bit tighter but it was uncomfortable on my hands.

Therein lies a substantial part of your problem. You don't fit your brifters (as installed). You might find it worth your while to reposition them - particularly as you seem to have not enough lever travel to compensate for the large-ish gap you're running.

[BJL]

I've done quite a bit of thinking regarding this today.

My issues with braking may lie with me. I have weakness in my right arm which affects grip strength. The brake levers on my hybrid are in line with the flat handlebars and thus, my hands are in a relatively 'natural' position when operating them. On the road bike, it's necessary to rotate my hands to operate the brakes as the levers are vertical. It may not sound like much, but it has quite an effect on my grip strength. I think this is why I have adjusted the gap so far out. It just happen the right lever operates the front brake which may explain why the front wheel rim is okay but the rear was worn. I may have been relying too much of the rear brake without realizing.

But as noted by another, I have noted the possibility that it may be the calipers flexing which was why I upgraded the OEM calipers. The difference initially was night and day. Swisstop pads also made a difference but it wasn't really noticed until I went back to Shimano pads. That's when it really felt like crap.

There's also the possibility that since changing the calipers, I'm descending a bit faster being more confident and expecting more out of the braking system.

[eeksll]

I noticed a big change when I went from ultegra brakes to campy. When I squeezed on the shimano brakes I noticed that a good bit of the force went into bending the caliper rather than pushing onto the rim. Sorry.

YES!, my "new" road bike is campag athena calipers with campag brake pads and chrous "brifters". Same rims as on old road bike with 105 gear. The brakes are just simply better (not sure about in the wet since the "new" bike doesn't see rain), initial bite is stronger and don't have the flexy feel.

So I'm surprised to hear that the 5600 isn't all that great either. I wonder how far back we have to go before we get anything decent?

Brakes are average, shifting is still fantastic (better than my campag shifting, but nit picking there)

edit: one of my riding mates has the 5800 105 series and that brake caliper looks a hell of a lot chunkier than the 5600. Not sure about the 5700. Wonder if that has less flex.

[Duck!]

Cables go rusty & fill up with crud

Ha ha, wut? No they don't.

Not in QLD they don't...

I can assure you they do. You might also want to examine your aluminium handlebars for corrosion under the bar tape...

I service somewhat more than a thousand bikes a year; I can assure you that cables are far more prone to problems, and thus demanding of maintenance than hydraulics will ever be.

[warthog1]

Ha ha, wut? No they don't.

Not in QLD they don't...

I can assure you they do. You might also want to examine your aluminium handlebars for corrosion under the bar tape...

I service somewhat more than a thousand bikes a year; I can assure you that cables are far more prone to problems, and thus demanding of maintenance than hydraulics will ever be.

I don't doubt your experience Duck.
From my POV though, the average mug punter (read me) has no problem performing brake cable maintenance on their own and with no special tools apart from an elcheapo cable cutter.

[Duck!]

I didn't say it is difficult, I just said it needs to be done more than hydraulics.

[mikgit]

Ill admit i put of doing anything to hydraulic brakes for a long time, jsut an ugh thought. Bit the bullet late last year, pad change on 1 bike and bleeding another (mtb, not road). I'd say that cablebrakes/rim pads (cartridge)are more fiddly, but ot a lot of work involved. Discs, more work, but really super easy to change pads, and bleeding is also super easy with a kit.

I also found it took me a long time to get used to discs (XT dics from XT v-brakes), but once I moved the lever to make it 1 finger...wonderful.

[Duck!]

I've done quite a bit of thinking regarding this today.

My issues with braking may lie with me. I have weakness in my right arm which affects grip strength. The brake levers on my hybrid are in line with the flat handlebars and thus, my hands are in a relatively 'natural' position when operating them. On the road bike, it's necessary to rotate my hands to operate the brakes as the levers are vertical. It may not sound like much, but it has quite an effect on my grip strength. I think this is why I have adjusted the gap so far out. It just happen the right lever operates the front brake which may explain why the front wheel rim is okay but the rear was worn. I may have been relying too much of the rear brake without realizing.

Physiologically, the palms-in position on drop bar brakes is more natural than the palms-down posture on flat bars. But, from a position on the lever hoods, your hands are placed up near the top of the brake lever, resulting in a much shorter effective lever, thus increasing the force required to operate the brake. Down on the drops your fingers are near the tips of the levers, so you have the full length available to generate proper leverage. The flat bar levers are longer than the effective lever when positioned on the hoods of a drop-bar, so feel easier to use.

[Comedian]

Ha ha, wut? No they don't.

Not in QLD they don't...

I can assure you they do. You might also want to examine your aluminium handlebars for corrosion under the bar tape...

I service somewhat more than a thousand bikes a year; I can assure you that cables are far more prone to problems, and thus demanding of maintenance than hydraulics will ever be.

Ok well that's pretty interesting. I'll be interested to see what you think in a few years time when there are lots and lots of them out there.

[Duck!]

There already are lots of them out there. You're forgetting that disc brakes have been on MTBs for around 25 years.

[Nobody]

There already are lots of them out there. You're forgetting that disc brakes have been on MTBs for around 25 years.

A small point, but according to the site below, it was 20 years ago was when the Hayes Mag was introduced. When I was racing in '92 we still had cantis.
http://www.bikemag.com/gear-features/ma ... rvairFO.97

[Comedian]

There already are lots of them out there. You're forgetting that disc brakes have been on MTBs for around 25 years.

So, I'm really not trying to be argumentative.

In my local area.. what I see is lots more roadbikes than MTB's. Lots and lots more. I know that's probably the area I'm in. All the local shops that I know their biggest thing is roadbikes. Several shops do roadbikes only and those that do MTB have it as sort of a second string if you know what I mean.

And I still think the usage will be fundamentally different between roadies and MTB. I do know some people commute on MTB's, but they are in the minority. I do know that MTB's get a hard life when ridden off road (particularly around BNE where our MTB areas are very very hilly).

However road biking is far more accessable. So, in my crowd roadies do massive mileage and ride for many many hours. In Brisbane at least, they don't really get to do much heavy braking and given the tiny tyres and position I doubt they would ever cop it like an MTB. There is the chance though that they will occasionally be used moderately hard for a long time on big descents.

It will be interesting to see how this differing usage plays out.

[Duck!]

There already are lots of them out there. You're forgetting that disc brakes have been on MTBs for around 25 years.

So, I'm really not trying to be argumentative.

Maybe not deliberately. I think perhaps your problem, for want of a better word, is that you're rather insular, forgetting that outside your circle of interest and knowledge there's a much larger cycling world, full of stuff that until recently hasn't triggered on your radar because it hasn't been in your circle of interest.

[Comedian]

There already are lots of them out there. You're forgetting that disc brakes have been on MTBs for around 25 years.

So, I'm really not trying to be argumentative.

Maybe not deliberately. I think perhaps your problem, for want of a better word, is that you're rather insular, forgetting that outside your circle of interest and knowledge there's a much larger cycling world, full of stuff that until recently hasn't triggered on your radar because it hasn't been in your circle of interest.

Yes, you guys working in the shop see lots of stuff no doubt. You should understand though, that there is stuff you don't see too which may be significant.

Everyone brings different stuff into the discussion and it's hard to tell from an internet forum I know. I've got a long history of building and fabricating stuff, and rebuilding and inspecting things (motorsport, aviation, model aviation) that you don't know about and you have no doubt got much experience with many things as well. In the last 6 years I've spend many thousands of k's pounding around the road and hanging out with people on roadies. It does give you an insight. Further, I've met some bike mechanics that are highly cerebral and really do think about all things which I respect, and some that are just young kids that really don't know stuff. It's hard through the keyboard but I'm pretty sure you're with the former.

One consistent theme in my times with bikes though is that anytime you make something more complex than it absolutely needs to be then you're asking for trouble or at the very least higher maintenance. Road bikes really are somewhat unique, in that they are very highly stressed because they are made very light. The kicker is that if they fail then the customer gets very hurt and the margins between "it's all good" and "it's really bad" aren't that big. What goes on in bikes would not be acceptable in aviation and cars are just so far removed to be not relevant.

I really do think you're underestimating how different the road bike application is, and how differently (and diversely) they are used compared to MTB. The fact that they are all lobbing in significantly heavier than promised, and that the manufacturers are silent on this and no one on here seems to be able to offer an explanation for tells me the engineers had real concerns and they've gone heavy to try and give margin. I've no doubt this will be paired back somewhat over time but we will see.

One of the most innovative F1 engineers named Colin Chapman had a saying "just add lightness". His holy grail was reducing the number of components, and making single components do multiple tasks. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't approve of the changes.