Carbon wheels under $1000?

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Tim
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby Tim » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:10 pm

Yep.
I've been using Koolstop Black pads when the stock pads have needed replacing.
Rim life in relation to brake tracks has been good.
ironhanglider wrote: Sudden impacts with stationary objects tend to shorten rim life dramatically.
:) Yes, like parked cars.
The rim straightened out.
The frame didn't. :)

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Duck!
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby Duck! » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:22 pm

ironhanglider wrote:
Tim wrote:
Duck! wrote:In the dry, pads for carbon are a lot less abrasive to the rims, which helps the rims last longer. This reduced abrasiveness means they're not collecting rim debris, which further increases abrasiveness, plus they're designed to wear much more, so they shed any crud that might collect, which all goes to minimising rim wear.
Which leads me to wondering if carbon specific pads work very well on aluminium brake tracks?
I'd far sooner replace relatively cheap pads than wear out expensive aluminium rims/wheels.
I've done that once. The short answer is No. The braking power reminded me of my early bikes with steel rims. And you need to clean them thoroughly before putting the carbon wheels back on. It is easy enough to change the pads particularly if you happen to have rims of similar widths, so you don't need to adjust the brakes with every wheel change.

Cheers,

Cameron
It's not so much that pads for carbon are softer in a sticky, high-friction sense (which is bad for carbon due to the higher heat generated), rather the stuff they're made from has lower shear strength than regular compounds, so using them basically tears the contact layer off rather than gouging into the rims.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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biker jk
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby biker jk » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:00 am

warthog1 wrote:
Some people will have a brown knicks moment from a relatively innocuous incident that won't give others one.
I own them. They are OK.
I don't ride them for their braking abilities in the wet. I generally bunch ride with them. As a 48 y.o never was, I need them in order to roll through for a turn.

Regards the photo, see this thread;
http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic ... 6&start=50
If you are heavy and can't descend confidently don't buy them ;)
That may or may not be you.
Mine were fine on the alpine classic and I passed at least 2 disc braked riders on the falls descent.
They [Mavic] serviced about 100 wheels during the 2015 Etape de Tour (a ~140km fondo), with 52 of them being failures and 38 were carbon clinchers that had delaminated or otherwise destroyed themselves.

Also check out the braking distance of the Zipp Firecrests in the wet.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/03/15/ne ... ider-rims/

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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby warthog1 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:39 am

biker jk wrote:
warthog1 wrote:

If you are heavy and can't descend confidently don't buy them ;)
That may or may not be you.
Mine were fine on the alpine classic and I passed at least 2 disc braked riders on the falls descent.
They [Mavic] serviced about 100 wheels during the 2015 Etape de Tour (a ~140km fondo), with 52 of them being failures and 38 were carbon clinchers that had delaminated or otherwise destroyed themselves.

Also check out the braking distance of the Zipp Firecrests in the wet.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/03/15/ne ... ider-rims/
And really :roll: That article is a marketing piece for Mavic's new carbon clinchers. Take it with a pinch of salt.
I suggest you start watching the Gruen transfer to educate yourself about marketing tactics :wink:
Dogs are the best people :wink:

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biker jk
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby biker jk » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:11 pm

Speaking of succumbing to marketing tactics from the guy that owns Zipp "Speed Weaponry" carbon clinchers. :lol:

Here are the facts.

https://youtu.be/ET1jRVynOBA?t=16m55s

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g-boaf
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby g-boaf » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:38 pm

biker jk wrote:Also check out the braking distance of the Zipp Firecrests in the wet.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/03/15/ne ... ider-rims/
Not wanting to rain on your parade, but that article looks like a complete lift from a media release. Sort of what some motoring journalists do.
Then they use a laser machining treatment on the braking surface to remove the outer resin coating and expose the fibers. This gives it enhanced friction in both wet and dry conditions, particularly when used with their own special blend of SwissStop yellow pads.
Oooh, wow... I'm fairly sure the wheels I've got had that idea already, and well before these Mavic things, at least by two years. :roll:

And the conveniently leave out some very competitive wheels from that graph... Dodgy marketing ploy.

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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby warthog1 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:55 pm

biker jk wrote:Speaking of succumbing to marketing tactics from the guy that owns Zipp "Speed Weaponry" carbon clinchers. :lol:

Here are the facts.

https://youtu.be/ET1jRVynOBA?t=16m55s
I've seen that vid already.

I agree the marketing is very, very lame :lol:
I got them near new for under half price. Hardly a mark on the freehub.
Despite the w@ nk factor of the slogans they are a fast wheel.
They brake fairly well imo too. I'm sure if you descend badly it is more than possible to melt them despite the supposedly high temp resin used.
Dogs are the best people :wink:

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biker jk
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby biker jk » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:19 pm

g-boaf wrote:
biker jk wrote:Also check out the braking distance of the Zipp Firecrests in the wet.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/03/15/ne ... ider-rims/
Not wanting to rain on your parade, but that article looks like a complete lift from a media release. Sort of what some motoring journalists do.
Then they use a laser machining treatment on the braking surface to remove the outer resin coating and expose the fibers. This gives it enhanced friction in both wet and dry conditions, particularly when used with their own special blend of SwissStop yellow pads.
Oooh, wow... I'm fairly sure the wheels I've got had that idea already, and well before these Mavic things, at least by two years. :roll:

And the conveniently leave out some very competitive wheels from that graph... Dodgy marketing ploy.
My only references to the article related to actual figures showing a large number of carbon rims melting in a Gran Fondo and a chart indicating that Zipp wheels braking in the wet is not great. As such, I'm not sure about the relevance of your remarks.

hamishm
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby hamishm » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:04 pm

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/value-carbon-wheelset/

My summary: carbon wheels are still a lot of hype.

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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby defy1 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:50 pm

hamishm wrote:https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/value-carbon-wheelset/

My summary: carbon wheels are still a lot of hype.
sure maybe, but they look soo good on a bike :)

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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:15 pm

hamishm wrote:https://cyclingtips.com/2017/02/value-carbon-wheelset/

My summary: carbon wheels are still a lot of hype.

The article says carbon wheelsets promise to boost your power. My question is, which ones promise that? The author must have seen it somewhere...

The very top end carbon wheels are good though. I have a set on one of my bikes that are really good. They are outrageously light, and paired with 25mm tyres the bike has amazing compliance over bumpy roads. I think that was the best bit, really nice on very long rides over 180km. And compared with the standard Giant alloy wheels (also good), you feel the difference when accelerating and especially uphill. But comparing the two otherwise identical bikes, the one with the alloy wheels is very harsh over bumps.

The only caution with the Xentis wheels I have is the weight limit. But I'm 59kg, so that's not a problem.

Thst said, I'm not much of a fan of those deeper profile carbon wheels.

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Duck!
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Re: Carbon wheels under $1000?

Postby Duck! » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:53 pm

Here's one I prepared earlier for another forum. It's MTB-focused, but there's no fundamental difference that makes it any less applicable to road.
The Duckmeister wrote:For the benefit of this thread I undertook a little test session. Having both an aluminium and carbon example of the same series frame is quite handy, because it gives a high level of consistency to the handling characteristics.

The Equipment:

Frames:
Frame 1 is a 2011/12 Giant Anthem aluminium with Fox Float RP2 rear shock and Rock Shox Reba RL dual-air fork with quick release dropouts, aluminium seatpost and stem, carbon bar.

Frame 2 is a 2011/12 Anthem Advanced SL carbon frame, including rear swingarm & upper rockers, with Fox Float RP23 shock and Fox F100 RLC fork with 15mm through-axle, carbon/aluminium composite stem, carbon bar and seatpost.

Both frames are medium size and roll on 26" wheels

In terms of drivetrain, both run a bastardised mix of SLX & XT, both 3x10. The aluminium bike has a non-clutched derailleur, while the carbon bike has a clutched model; the clutch was switched OFF for consistency & comparison of noise transfer.

Wheels:
Wheelset 1 is an aluminium Shimano M785 XT set, quick release at both ends, fitted with Maxxis Ignitor LUST tyres, tubeless.

Wheelset 2 is an aluminium Shimano M775 XT set, quick release rear, through axle front, fitted with standard foldable Maxxis Crossmark tyres, tubed. Both XT sets have 24 spokes front & rear, the M785 is a few grams lighter, but not enough difference to impact the test. I could have got away with one set, but decided to use both to minimise fork swapping.

Wheelset 3 is a Dirty Mongrel Racing custom build, Carbonal M623 rims, Shimano M9000 XTR hubs with 32 DT Aerolite spokes per end, quick release rear, through axle front, with Maxxis Crossmark LUST tyres, tubeless.

All hubs have 10-degree ratchet profiling, so pedal pick-up is consistent across all wheels.

All tyres were run at 22psi front, 24psi rear, although the tubed tyres could probably have been run a little harder to compensate for the softer sidewalls.

The Test Course:
I used a shortened version of the Commonwealth Games course at Lysterfield; mostly gravel-topped but in places worn through to natural surface including tree roots and exposed rocks, with a wide range of corners, climbs, descents and higher-speed sections and some rock garden technical features. The course is 4.2km long, and I tried to pick the same lines as much as possible.

The Test:

A single lap was ridden in each configuration; first all-aluminium, second carbon frame/alu wheels, third all carbon, finally swapping the forks to fit the carbon wheels to the aluminium frame.

The meaty bits:
Not too surprisingly, the all-aluminium rig transmits a lot of trail chatter, and although the tight & steep geometry & small wheels produce agile handling, there is some floatiness when pointing at corners. Switching to the aluminium-shod carbon frame, it's immediately apparent the gravelly trail buzz is reduced. The lighter frame is easier to chuck around, but the slightly floaty feel in corners remains. Side note: this second lap was ridden with the through-axle version of the XT wheels. For me at least there is no significant change in handling attributable to the axle/fork configuration. More aggressive riders may notice more difference.

Lap Three & onto the full carbon package. The gravelly trail buzz is further reduced, but the bigger bumps become slightly more apparent. It's a weird paradox, you feel the size of the bumps more due to the greater stiffness of the wheels, but the vibration damping of the resin component of the composite layup takes the sting out of the initial hit. The handling is noticeably sharper; there is less delay in information getting from the handlebar & fork and through the wheel to the ground and it darts into corners, but as noted earlier in the thread, the stiffness does introduce a little bit of skittishness on mid-corner bumps, although that can be dialled out with an adjustment of tyre pressure. The other factor to the agility is the lack of weight, in this instance there's a 300g difference between the carbon wheels and the XT sets. The reduction in rotating mass cuts the inertia, so it's easier to change direction, and faster to wind up out of corners.

Finally the aluminium frame/carbon wheels. The trail buzz is about on par with the opposite alu/carbon mix - more than all-carbon, but less than all-aluminium, but the handling gains are all there. You do feel the bumps a bit more because you don't have as much carbon (well, resin really) to soak up the vibrations, but they're still softer than aluminium.

The Wrap

Clearly all-carbon is the optimal package, but that's not always possible. If it has to come down to a choice, aluminium frame on carbon wheels is a better package than carbon frame on aluminium wheels.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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