SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

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MichaelB
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SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:32 pm

So, it seems that they have ditched the carbon substrate (for reasons not provided).

SiC Rotors are back, but the SiC is now applied to a Ti rotor (grades and details not listed) with only the weight and thickness shown.

Some of you may remember the Kettle Carbon/SiCCC disc rotors that appeared some time ago, and despite some improvements, never quite got it right. They disappeared, Phoenixed again, only to re-disappear. Then a Spanish mob has had a go, Alpha, but the results and feedback has been somewhat odd.

I've always been interested from an engineering point of view, but never quite ready to part with the cash, especially when there is limited info.

Phoenix time again.

They are now back, but instead of the carbon substrate with SiC (Silicon Carbide) impregnated, they have gone with a Ti disc with a SiC coating.

Bugger all details, of the base material spes, and no details of what pads are to be used or anything else. :?

Also only in 6 bolt, but now using Ti as the base, should be able to be made in Centerlock (which would be nice)


Image

Have fired off an enquiry re the suggested pad material compatibility, but waiting to hear back, although not optimistic.

Retail is Euro 75 ea and available in 140, 160, 180 and 203mm.

Tempted, but not enough yet. There was a discount code to take Euro15 off each rotor for a limited time, but still ends up being A$200 for a 160/140 pair. :thinking:

A bit of google fooing shows that Ti-SiC us more commonly used in compressor blades and other advanced structures, although not sure what that really means.

The quoted temp resistance (1,650 degrees Celcius) is a furphy, as no pad material operates in that range, but curious whether what grade the Ti base is, and how resistant to warping ?

Would it still need the same style of pad (carbon) that Kettle came up with in the end ?

Anyone know any more of care ?

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby ldrcycles » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:55 pm

With the surface material being the same it would make sense to use the same pads. I would think these would have better heat transmission, carbon fibre is very poor at shedding heat isn't it?
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby trailgumby » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 pm

They'e had a few cracks at this now. I'd wait for feedback. Don't wanna be on the bleeding edge where brakes are concerned.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:20 pm

XACD have been making Ti rotors for years, in a selection of thicknesses too. However there was another thread which produced some proper reasoning why Ti is not as good as steel for rotors, which is not as good as Aluminium, hence the Aluminium-core rotors. However Al has a relatively low melting point, which is why there are tales of melted rotors on tandems.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby Duck! » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:04 pm

ldrcycles wrote: I would think these would have better heat transmission, carbon fibre is very poor at shedding heat isn't it?
Carbon is a lot more thermally stable than metal compounds. So while it doesn't shed heat as efficiently, it also takes longer to get it up to temperature.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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MichaelB
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:38 am

In this case, the Ti-SiC rotors are not using the Ti for the friction surface (that 's the SiC part that's been transferred from the other generation stuff), so my key query is what it's like in terms of warping when hot ?

Given they use this setup in jet engines, you'd assume that this wouldn't happen, but material grades and quality would be very different.

Interesting thought re the transfer of heat as a result of friction (i.e. slowing you down). There is another person with great knowledge on another forum, but haven't posted there yet.

The interesting thing re the sic rotor site, is that it claims it's made in the USA, the EU headquarters are in Milano Italy, yet the reply comes from Spain ?

Here is the text from a query I sent re the recommended pad material/brand and expected rotor life ;

Hi there,
You can see all the information on our website www.sicrotors.com
However, the Sic discs are made of titanium, a lighter and stronger material than steel.
Supports high temperatures beyond steel used by other manufacturers.
It is superior to premature and continuous wear than steel, so it is safer and more resistant.
In addition to all this we have made sure to create an ecological
factory to create our products.
Many thanks
Sic rotors


:?: :roll: :?:

Um, that doesn't answer any of the questions, and no the site doesn't have the info (that's why I asked) and who cares about the ecology ...

There seems to be some sore of link there to the Alpha Carbon rotor people, but they are made in Spain and still use the carbon substrate.

I am just interested, not from a WW point of view, but SiC IS a better braking friction surface, and I'm just a nerd who likes to try 'different' things (hence my foray into road disc brakes all those years ago .. :mrgreen: )

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MichaelB
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:42 pm

Also spoke to the Zelvy guys here in Aus as well, and despite it being late, their version (SiC on Alloy disc with a carbon centre), it's due out around Xmas.

BIG difference is that theirs will come with a set of pads to suit the new rotors, and they will be available as well for a reasonable price.

Indicated at A$150 for a disc & padset per axle. Not sure on just what a pad set will cost, but they have said that it will be a price that is competitive with major brands, and even a bit cheaper.

https://www.zelvycarbon.com//pages/zelv ... rake-rotor

Image

Much more inclined to support these guys than SiC, as they are actually a bit more forthcoming and the site actually has info on it. That the discs come with pads is also a key factor.

Standby to standby

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MichaelB
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:50 am

Latest email reply was equally frustrating and enlightening...

Seems they will also do some SiC rotors, but with a steel base for about 30 Euro range.

Still didn't answer question re pads or rotor life.

And now they mention they "participated in the British 2017 BMX Championship" - what the hell does that mean ? They only brake after the finish line ..... :unbelievable:

As they say in the Shark Tank, "I'm out" :?

Standing by on the Zelvy ones though :D

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:45 pm

Minor update from the SiC Rotor people.

Apparently their recommended pad is Swissstop Exotherm which is a metallic based compound.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby Calvin27 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:08 pm

trailgumby wrote:They'e had a few cracks at this now. I'd wait for feedback. Don't wanna be on the bleeding edge where brakes are concerned.
I noticed the pun hehehe.

A few blokes tried carbon rotors a while back on rotorburn. Basically was a no go not for weight or price but simply the friction coefficient was quite off. Pretty hard to beat more than two decades of disc development by shimano and sram.
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MichaelB
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:58 pm

(AT) calvin27 - yep, a few people tried, and in reality, it wasn't until they got to the F-processed ones (3rd go ?) AND produced the pads to match did it get closer to doing what it was meant to.

One of the big issues that was never communicated, was that the static friction is very different to that of a steel one.

That said, I never tried, as initially I didn't have the funds, and then the trials and tribulations rolled in, and I held on tight to my money.

The new version (and that of Zelvy) are a bit different, as it's now not all about weight.

I'll still standby to standby for a while, but I'm interested to see what the progress is.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby Calvin27 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:01 pm

MichaelB wrote: The new version (and that of Zelvy) are a bit different, as it's now not all about weight.
Which would suggest this is mostly a roadie thing which would still put it under typical mtb brake performance. You probably wouldn't notice if you went from rims to this disc brake, but I doubt the R&D is up to spec with the stuff shimano/sram do. They could have gone carbon/titanium a long time ago but chose not to probably for good reason.
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MichaelB
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:18 pm

True, but they are also more conservative

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby trailgumby » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:17 pm

... and given they are the established duopoly (although not at first) and the market is shrinking at the moment, there is less incentive to throw lots of money at bleeding edge tech than there is to contain costs.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby trailgumby » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:30 pm

MichaelB wrote:Also spoke to the Zelvy guys here in Aus as well, and despite it being late, their version (SiC on Alloy disc with a carbon centre), it's due out around Xmas.

BIG difference is that theirs will come with a set of pads to suit the new rotors, and they will be available as well for a reasonable price.

Indicated at A$150 for a disc & padset per axle. Not sure on just what a pad set will cost, but they have said that it will be a price that is competitive with major brands, and even a bit cheaper.

https://www.zelvycarbon.com//pages/zelv ... rake-rotor

Image

Much more inclined to support these guys than SiC, as they are actually a bit more forthcoming and the site actually has info on it. That the discs come with pads is also a key factor.

Standby to standby
Wear in the carbon spider is going to be a problem with that design I reckon.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:21 am

trailgumby wrote:
Wear in the carbon spider is going to be a problem with that design I reckon.
Yes, it would be an issue, but there are things that can be done to help with that.

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby kb » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:24 pm

MichaelB wrote:Minor update from the SiC Rotor people.

Apparently their recommended pad is Swissstop Exotherm which is a metallic based compound.
Haha. The pads I was using that got recalled and probably won't be available for a while.
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:12 pm

kb wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Minor update from the SiC Rotor people.

Apparently their recommended pad is Swissstop Exotherm which is a metallic based compound.
Haha. The pads I was using that got recalled and probably won't be available for a while.
Was the recall about the pad separating from the backing ?

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby trailgumby » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:55 pm

MichaelB wrote:
trailgumby wrote:
Wear in the carbon spider is going to be a problem with that design I reckon.
Yes, it would be an issue, but there are things that can be done to help with that.
Quite true, like an alloy end cap for the spokes for the disc retainer to run on, but based on that photo as is, not such a good design...

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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby kb » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:03 pm

MichaelB wrote:
kb wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Minor update from the SiC Rotor people.

Apparently their recommended pad is Swissstop Exotherm which is a metallic based compound.
Haha. The pads I was using that got recalled and probably won't be available for a while.
Was the recall about the pad separating from the backing ?
Potentially, yeah
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Re: SiC disc rotors back, but no carbon ......

Postby MichaelB » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:43 am

(AT) TG - this was also an issue with the Kettle rotors and potential galvanic corrosion between the hub and carbon rotor spider.

I'll certainly be following the development of both suppliers and asking prudent questions, so I'll keep posting info as I get it.

Just really curious if it will work :-)

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