Insurance has nothing to do with this. The EPA isn't handing out 2hr notices with the threat of fines.Calvin27 wrote:Same goes if it was my car that was vandalised and dumped. Just because you have insurance that deals with it doesn't mean they can just leave it there.
Putting the "oh no" into obikes
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby human909 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:06 pm
How is that different? If a car is a hazard it gets removed straight away (i.e. 2 hours) and you fork out for the costs.human909 wrote:I give up. You seem to be moving the goal posts all the time.
Insurance has nothing to do with this. The EPA isn't handing out 2hr notices with the threat of fines.Calvin27 wrote:Same goes if it was my car that was vandalised and dumped. Just because you have insurance that deals with it doesn't mean they can just leave it there.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Jmuzz » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:38 pm
You need permits to access the canals and certain weather forecasts make it impossible for regular workers.
You can't just expect a dive salvage operator to show up with <48hrs especially on weekends and the boat callout fee will be a couple of thousand for a single bike.
With the high rate of vandalism they would need an army of workers to keep up.
Total lack of anti-vandalism enforcement and public education campaigns saying how trashing someone's/corporate/public property is a dog act (eg the NSW "don't be a tosser" campaign) so no improvement in sight. Vandalism has basically been cheered on.
"Yeah smash that non rego paying road toad yeehaw".
So it's destroyed.
And what did Australia learn? Still ok to wreck bikes they aren't real property and deserve it because they don't pay rego. Still a lack of bike parking areas. Loss of slow bikes which were a good argument for helmetless footpath riding. Inadequate cycleway infrastructure.
Bicycle parking is still a big debate our society has to face, the same issue of "bikes everywhere" (translation = 4 bikes in a street lined with cars) is still going to happen when (if, if anti-bike lobby keeps on a winning streak) bikes become more mainstream transport.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:23 pm
7 days for any oBike found in a waterwayJmuzz wrote:48hrs is not reasonable for a "strange place" eg in a floodway canal, in a rail corridor, underwater.
better?
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:53 pm
Verdict - Massive failure of oBike, four months before a launch when production and planning had already been running so long.A month before the rollout, then-lord mayor Robert Doyle met oBike representatives, who passionately outlined their vision for a radical shake up of the city's cycling opportunities.
Verdict - Possibly poor and insufficient presentation by oBike and unwillingness of the governmentMr Doyle was sceptical, and told them he wasn't interested.
Verdict - While the barriers shouldn't be too high so that very small operators also have a fair chance, the lack of any framework meant the company rolled out on their terms and faced a backlash. Again, fingers pointing at both parties.It didn’t matter. The company didn't need a permit to operate and within several weeks Melburnians began to spot yellow bikes lining the pavements of the inner city.
NextSteps
How smart are other share bike companies to understand and learn from this?
It should be in the interest of the government to be involved and guide the development and growth. Of course this costs money (time) but it can be compared the short term cost in dealing with the repercussions and long term cost because there is no bikeshare which means that the transport mix is more limited and, forexample, increases the reliance on other modes such as cars.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:11 pm
Why would government guide the development and growth if they already have their own pet bike share scheme?AUbicycles wrote: It should be in the interest of the government to be involved and guide the development and growth. Of course this costs money (time) but it can be compared the short term cost in dealing with the repercussions and long term cost because there is no bikeshare which means that the transport mix is more limited and, forexample, increases the reliance on other modes such as cars.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby human909 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:43 pm
<insert laughter and a Yes Minister clip here>
But I am in complete agreement with AUbicycles again here. Obikes failed badly in many ways. However that doesn't mean that the government should actively trying to sink the ship. Especially when the ship is potentially a VERY cheap way to reduce congestion.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Jmuzz » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:57 pm
Don't bother with a hostile local government who are already in monopolized business with a Royal Automotive Club for one.AUbicycles wrote: NextSteps
How smart are other share bike companies to understand and learn from this?
I don't know why they avoid cable locks so bikes can't be thrown places so easily?
Require the hirer to use the app to submit photo of bike properly cable locked at appropriate location.
Surely it solves a lot of the problems but they avoid it worldwide. Must be some reasoning behind it?
I guess in places like China there are so many bikes it's just not possible to find spare posts to use. But that's not the case here.
Foreign countries probably don't comprehend just how much Australians vandalize, you don't see it in asia especially China, Malaysia, Singapore where these are based.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:58 pm
I think hey have to let go of heir Melbourne bike share connection to do that. The problem is the Government took the opportunity to fill a niche with no real transition plan to exit the scene when the market came to the party. So the question is what should they do? Divest their bike share system and sell to the highest bidder? Last I checked they were making a loss. Give it to the RACV so they can kill bicycles more?human909 wrote:However that doesn't mean that the government should actively trying to sink the ship. Especially when the ship is potentially a VERY cheap way to reduce congestion.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:09 pm
You mean the successful one?Calvin27 wrote:Why would government guide the development and growth if they already have their own pet bike share scheme?
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby human909 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:15 pm
Even better, integrate the cable lock with the wheel lock. (Plenty of existing designs that do this.) Incorporate an integrity check on the cable lock and hold the last user responsible for the location placement of the bike. Suddenly 90% of the potential problems are gone.Jmuzz wrote:I don't know why they avoid cable locks so bikes can't be thrown places so easily?
However Obike didn't foresee this and retrofitting a fleet is uneconomic. Add punitive fines and hostile local authorities they had to pull out.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Jmuzz » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:33 pm
I guess the big problem in the China market is related to the bikes being parked on private property, which results in the property parking guards roughly throwing them in a pile on the footpath.human909 wrote: However Obike didn't foresee this and retrofitting a fleet is uneconomic. Add punitive fines and hostile local authorities they had to pull out.
Plus clusters of bikes.
They don't vandalize them maliciously, they don't snap the locks to ride free, they don't ram them into gutters and try to jump and wheelie, they wouldn't dare plus their young people just don't have that lout culture. Beer in every shop with no age restriction for example but they don't want it unlike the bogan vommitfest which would happen with Australian youth given unrestricted access to 50c beers.
So in that situation they don't want or need them immobilized, it only makes the private property and cluster issue worse.
They just wouldn't understand how it is here.
It will probably need a USA company to understand our market.
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The Converstation says
Postby Thoglette » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:59 pm
Dorina Pojani, Senior Lecturer in Urban Planning, The University of Queensland
Jonathan Corcoran, Professor, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, The University of Queensland
June 14, 2018 6.35am AEST
Basically a potted history. The comments (25 so far) capture the key talking points
1. failure to charge a single vandal and the general acceptance of this behaviour
2. the unusual business model (and rumoured resale of personal data)
3. failure of oBikes to do, well, anything other than privatise the profits and externalise the costs
If the bikes cost maybe $250 landed they only needed 4 subscribers per bike to make a profit just on the joining fee.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:12 pm
Took one for a spin, the cost was 1 Yuan, about 20c
Perhaps in China its a crime to vandalise, unlike Australia where vandalism is not prevented by any sort of law enforcement. In Australia your more likely to get booked riding a bike that doesn't have a bell than get arrested for vandalism
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Calvin27 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:14 pm
Not sure if I'd call that a success, but the blue ones. I believe they are still government (local and state) funded.AUbicycles wrote:You mean the successful one?Calvin27 wrote:Why would government guide the development and growth if they already have their own pet bike share scheme?
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby human909 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:19 am
There is a big factor of people acting in accordance with the respect and responsibility given to them. The more you try to control people the more they act out when the rules aren't there. It can be seen in classrooms or in regard to alcohol (ir)responsibility. The classic example is the contrast between the bars in NSW,QLD and VIC. Lock out laws etc...Jmuzz wrote:Beer in every shop with no age restriction for example but they don't want it unlike the bogan vommitfest which would happen with Australian youth given unrestricted access to 50c beers.
I reckon you'd have a much greater than 50% chance of getting off without much more than a stern look if you gave a Obike a good kicking in the spokes in front of the police. If you rode past without a helmet though....mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps in China its a crime to vandalise, unlike Australia where vandalism is not prevented by any sort of law enforcement. In Australia your more likely to get booked riding a bike that doesn't have a bell than get arrested for vandalism
Regarding the EPA involvement. What is ignored in all the to-and-fro debate earlier is the general complete lack of involvement of the EPA on this issues in the normal course of events. (vandalism, neglected good on council property, etc). Basically the councils wanted Obikes gone and they didn't have the direct tools to do it. So instead they got the sweeping powers of the EPA to do their dirty work. It stinks because it isn't due process.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby Calvin27 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:08 am
That's conjecture. Maybe you could FOI the dealings with obike to find out for yourself. I very highly doubt they haven't followed due process. I also don't think vandalism is their problem so why would they get involved?human909 wrote: Regarding the EPA involvement. What is ignored in all the to-and-fro debate earlier is the general complete lack of involvement of the EPA on this issues in the normal course of events. (vandalism, neglected good on council property, etc). Basically the councils wanted Obikes gone and they didn't have the direct tools to do it. So instead they got the sweeping powers of the EPA to do their dirty work. It stinks because it isn't due process.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:26 am
How to solve this, discourage cycling
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby human909 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:20 am
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby fat and old » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:32 pm
human909 wrote: There was no suggestion the EPA hasn't been following its due process.
I have to admit I wondered what you meant about "due process". Obviously not the EPA. Are you referring to council?Basically the councils wanted Obikes gone and they didn't have the direct tools to do it. So instead they got the sweeping powers of the EPA to do their dirty work. It stinks because it isn't due process.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby human909 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:14 pm
Council or state based law making to address the situation. Not by leveraging the powers of a different authorities to drive the company out of town.fat and old wrote:I have to admit I wondered what you meant about "due process". Obviously not the EPA. Are you referring to council?
NSW is at least attempting to address the issue through due process of state law making. (Though I'm not crossing my fingers on it being accommodating with the bikeshare companies.)
THISis a decent coverage on the issue:
"Depending on the space available, this would see new bike racks reserved specifically for bike share bikes, or a car parking bays being converted for bikes, Dr Fishman said.
This should be funded by state government, with a smaller share funded by the bike share operator through a levy."
Can't dispute that.
Obike made the mistake of trying to enter the market without the blessing of the local authorities. Sometimes that succeeds, (UBER) but it can also fail as demonstrated. On the other hand the council didn't adhere to their own stated goals regarding active transport by their failure to engage and then active fight against the bike share scheme.
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:49 pm
Let's build an 8 lane motorway from Menangle to Box Hill instead!mikesbytes wrote:Bicycles are a big threat to large companies that build motorways, a study of a road in Copenhagen showed that 7% of the road corridor was allocated to cycling and that carried 51% of the the traffic. There's no need to build expensive motorways if the existing road corridor's are handling the traffic.
How to solve this, discourage cycling
http://roadsaustralia.weebly.com/m9-motorway.html
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:24 pm
I wasn't even aware that this one was on the radar. Is this part of the $45 billion being spent on the infrastructure upgrade [bad word], is it an additional expenditure?queequeg wrote:Let's build an 8 lane motorway from Menangle to Box Hill instead!mikesbytes wrote:Bicycles are a big threat to large companies that build motorways, a study of a road in Copenhagen showed that 7% of the road corridor was allocated to cycling and that carried 51% of the the traffic. There's no need to build expensive motorways if the existing road corridor's are handling the traffic.
How to solve this, discourage cycling
http://roadsaustralia.weebly.com/m9-motorway.html
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby queequeg » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:28 pm
It's part of the new airport, but they just announced the "corridor" in the last few weeks. Seems the "corridor" is cutting through a lot of rural land, and came as a bit of surprise to those in the sleep areas in the North West. It also seems to go right through Box Hill, which is where they are currently building thousands of new houses, then extending out to Maraylya, which is a sleepy rural area surrounded by Scheyville National Park (which is very nice to ride through). Only reason it goes out there is some pie in the sky plan to link it to the central coast (presumably by bulldozing tens of thousands of hectares of pristine national park!).mikesbytes wrote:I wasn't even aware that this one was on the radar. Is this part of the $45 billion being spent on the infrastructure upgrade [bad word], is it an additional expenditure?queequeg wrote:Let's build an 8 lane motorway from Menangle to Box Hill instead!mikesbytes wrote:Bicycles are a big threat to large companies that build motorways, a study of a road in Copenhagen showed that 7% of the road corridor was allocated to cycling and that carried 51% of the the traffic. There's no need to build expensive motorways if the existing road corridor's are handling the traffic.
How to solve this, discourage cycling
http://roadsaustralia.weebly.com/m9-motorway.html
https://www.collaborativemap.com/WesternSydneyCorridors
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Re: Putting the "oh no" into obikes
Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:12 pm
This should be a separate topic...queequeg wrote:It's part of the new airport, but they just announced the "corridor" in the last few weeks. Seems the "corridor" is cutting through a lot of rural land, and came as a bit of surprise to those in the sleep areas in the North West. It also seems to go right through Box Hill, which is where they are currently building thousands of new houses, then extending out to Maraylya, which is a sleepy rural area surrounded by Scheyville National Park (which is very nice to ride through). Only reason it goes out there is some pie in the sky plan to link it to the central coast (presumably by bulldozing tens of thousands of hectares of pristine national park!).mikesbytes wrote:I wasn't even aware that this one was on the radar. Is this part of the $45 billion being spent on the infrastructure upgrade [bad word], is it an additional expenditure?queequeg wrote:
Let's build an 8 lane motorway from Menangle to Box Hill instead!
http://roadsaustralia.weebly.com/m9-motorway.html
https://www.collaborativemap.com/WesternSydneyCorridors
It's hard to see any realistic way to connect it to the central coast, perhaps take it thru Arcadia but the cost will be mega and we already have the M7 which will be connected eventually via the northconnex. Perhaps a future Govt will turn it North West and fill the current farm land around the Hawkesbury into a housing estate.
BTW when you click in the rail extensions on that map, it shows tiny bits compared with the motorways and other road mods. No mention of cycling or bus's
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