A sense of entitlement?

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ColinOldnCranky
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A sense of entitlement?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:45 pm

Context - the Perth Riverside Drive path normally used by cyclists was closed in the early hours today so that cars, lined up behind each and under the control of marshals for the Shannons Car Show could be parked either side of path for the public to later wander between. The alternate and marked route NOT used by said tools was the straight path immediately to the left in perfect condition and with less obstruction and very few peds at the time.

To the five tools who, this morning, chose to ignore the barriers on the Perth Riverside Drive cycle and bulleted through regardless you are just that, tools. Self entitled tools.

You chose to do so, ignored directions shouted to you as you barreled along to shift to the other path, detoured onto grass when you had to to get around the cars LEGITIMATELY on that path that were under control of responsible marshals.

And worst of all, dressed in flash lycra on flash bikes giving others reason to associate you with me and others here.

While people should not hold me responsible for things I do not do, the world works as the world works. So I and others here get to wear some of your selfish self entitlement.

(Before anyone justifies the action described on the basis that the path was put there for bikes, not cars, I remind you that annually a lane of the Kwinana Freeway is closed to cars so that cyclists can complete the Bridges loop. A restriction that also prevents drivers from exiting that freeway to South Perth.)
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:16 am

I would actually say poor upbringing..
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby Ancientflatulence » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:19 am

This forum needs a like button for posts such as this ............ I express my approval of these sentiments and concur with the author's condemnation of said entitled drongos ............. :-)

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:07 am

Your description is sounds pretty apt. Cyclists barrelling through crowds doesn't pass the courteous test be it legal or not.


>>>Tangent>>>>>

However a good part of the problem is that cyclists of all types are so used to improper, impractical and unsafe directions it is hard to know when to start believing the boy who is crying wolf. And most of the time there is no basis in law either for many of the directions.
That said even if the laws are in place half the time they aren't safe or practical to obey. My point is that we place so many ridiculous laws and rules on cyclists that many cyclists just resort to ignoring a fair chunk of them.

Out of curiosity. I wonder if the shared path was "legally" closed. What sort of closure is required? Given the definition of a shared path it is kinda hard to close it....

You could try to have a "no bicycle sign" but unless you remove all the other signage that probably isn't that legally effective.
"(2) A “no bicycles” sign, or a “no bicycles” road marking, applies
to a length of carriageway or path beginning at the sign or
marking and ending at the nearest of the following:
(a) a “bicycle path” sign or “bicycle path” road marking;
(b) a “bicycle lane” sign;
(c) a “separated footpath” sign or “separated footpath” road
marking;
(d) a “shared path” sign;
(e) an “end no bicycles” sign;
(f) the next intersection.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:37 am

Unfortunately, actions of few cyclists are used to target cyclists whereas action by few drivers apparently do not reflect the actions and behaviour of all.

Fair enough to get annoyed when, by default, you are perceived as having some kind of responsibility or control over these people.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:45 am

On that note, yes, ban unicycles and bicycles.

On the flip side, I regularly commute at 30 average speed yet have no troubles slowing to walking speed around pedestrians where I'm on cycleways.

I shouldn't have to say that but someone wants to paint us all the same way. :roll:

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:23 pm

human909 wrote:Out of curiosity. I wonder if the shared path was "legally" closed. What sort of closure is required? Given the definition of a shared path it is kinda hard to close it....


Does WA have rule 304 Direction by a police officer or authorised person?
And does the WA definition of Authorised Person allow for a traffic controller acting on a council authority to close a path?

If so then if an authorised person tells you it's closed to bicycles then it's closed. 20 penalty units for disobeying them in NSW.

But civilian traffic controllers get ignored, club and charity events have a lot of trouble with it and often have to resort to user pays police officer hire which costs a bomb.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby macca33 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:22 pm

human909 wrote:Your description is sounds pretty apt. Cyclists barrelling through crowds doesn't pass the courteous test be it legal or not.


>>>Tangent>>>>>

However a good part of the problem is that cyclists of all types are so used to improper, impractical and unsafe directions it is hard to know when to start believing the boy who is crying wolf. And most of the time there is no basis in law either for many of the directions.
That said even if the laws are in place half the time they aren't safe or practical to obey. My point is that we place so many ridiculous laws and rules on cyclists that many cyclists just resort to ignoring a fair chunk of them.

Out of curiosity. I wonder if the shared path was "legally" closed. What sort of closure is required? Given the definition of a shared path it is kinda hard to close it....

You could try to have a "no bicycle sign" but unless you remove all the other signage that probably isn't that legally effective.
"(2) A “no bicycles” sign, or a “no bicycles” road marking, applies
to a length of carriageway or path beginning at the sign or
marking and ending at the nearest of the following:
(a) a “bicycle path” sign or “bicycle path” road marking;
(b) a “bicycle lane” sign;
(c) a “separated footpath” sign or “separated footpath” road
marking;
(d) a “shared path” sign;
(e) an “end no bicycles” sign;
(f) the next intersection.



Honestly mate, give it a rest. These people did the wrong thing and their actions only serve to heighten tensions between drivers and cyclists. There's no excuse for wanton ignorance - from any party...
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silentC
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby silentC » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:53 pm

I was discussing this topic with a fellow cyclist yesterday. Since we had a fatality here recently, there is a feeling amongst the cycling community that we have to all be paragons of virtue now more than ever because any slip reflects badly on us all and contributes to the general ill-feeling towards us. In other words, give them nothing to complain about.

This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.

Not that I am wanting to go running red lights or anything, but it's just the idea that we are 'being watched' and have to mind our p's and q's. It does make me want to do the wrong thing just to stick it to them in a way... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby NASHIE » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:39 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Context - the Perth Riverside Drive path normally used by cyclists was closed in the early hours today so that cars, lined up behind each and under the control of marshals for the Shannons Car Show could be parked either side of path for the public to later wander between. The alternate and marked route NOT used by said tools was the straight path immediately to the left in perfect condition and with less obstruction and very few peds at the time.

To the five tools who, this morning, chose to ignore the barriers on the Perth Riverside Drive cycle and bulleted through regardless you are just that, tools. Self entitled tools.

You chose to do so, ignored directions shouted to you as you barreled along to shift to the other path, detoured onto grass when you had to to get around the cars LEGITIMATELY on that path that were under control of responsible marshals.

And worst of all, dressed in flash lycra on flash bikes giving others reason to associate you with me and others here.

While people should not hold me responsible for things I do not do, the world works as the world works. So I and others here get to wear some of your selfish self entitlement.

(Before anyone justifies the action described on the basis that the path was put there for bikes, not cars, I remind you that annually a lane of the Kwinana Freeway is closed to cars so that cyclists can complete the Bridges loop. A restriction that also prevents drivers from exiting that freeway to South Perth.)


Agree really poor form. On a plus note we had look around at about 11am and there was no way anyone could ride on the PSP section due to peds/cars and 99% of the lycra clad crew were off there bikes walking looking around so all good. Although i was bit late to give them a mouth full but 3 riders ( 2 females in WAIS kit ) came through way to fast on the ped path adjacent the river, which im guessing was the diversion as i did not see either end. Lots of people walking around taking photos stepping on/off paths etc. I guess to curtail the 1% ers that do F$#% it up, it would of been best to close both paths to bikes and push them up and around St Georges Tce.

I haven't ridden through there in years as its full of rubber necker tourists etc ( which is good ) but they really need to make a bike lane on the road up and around EQ and leave the paths for the tourists etc to enjoy.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby redned » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:22 pm

fat and old wrote:Caught anything? Cold? Ebola? My fault


So you are the cause of my ebola?

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:42 pm

silentC wrote:I was discussing this topic with a fellow cyclist yesterday. Since we had a fatality here recently, there is a feeling amongst the cycling community that we have to all be paragons of virtue now more than ever because any slip reflects badly on us all and contributes to the general ill-feeling towards us. In other words, give them nothing to complain about.

This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.

Not that I am wanting to go running red lights or anything, but it's just the idea that we are 'being watched' and have to mind our p's and q's. It does make me want to do the wrong thing just to stick it to them in a way... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



Because of this one action by some people in WA, we should all crush our bikes and abandon cycling again, in order to make ourselves look like paragons of virtue to motorists. :roll: I share your frustration as well.

Solution is just to pack up and go riding overseas once in a while. There isn't this obsessive behaviour overseas. People even ride through town squares - shock horror! And no the sky didn't fall down. And if you ride a road bike they really don't care. You are just another rider out there going about your business. It's great.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby fat and old » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:24 am

silentC wrote:This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.



I dunno....I reckon the majority of posters here judge motorists as a cohort. Sometimes as little sub-sections...tradies, tradies in utes, tradies in white hilux's, audi drivers, merc drivers etc etc. The term "cage"...is that familiar?

Oh, my personal fav.....4wd's. Land Crushers, Urban assault vehicles, etc

Enough guilt to go around.......

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby Cyclophiliac » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:59 am

fat and old wrote:
silentC wrote:This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.



I dunno....I reckon the majority of posters here judge motorists as a cohort. Sometimes as little sub-sections...tradies, tradies in utes, tradies in white hilux's, audi drivers, merc drivers etc etc. The term "cage"...is that familiar?

Oh, my personal fav.....4wd's. Land Crushers, Urban assault vehicles, etc

Enough guilt to go around.......

True, but how many cyclists write angry letters in various media, having a go at motorists in general, and demanding they all be made accountable for the actions of only some of them? There's a difference between us being justifiably angry at being continually put in danger by careless or malicious motorists driving dangerous vehicles, and the continual prejudice we have to endure as a minority group.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby silentC » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:24 am

fat and old wrote:
silentC wrote:This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.



I dunno....I reckon the majority of posters here judge motorists as a cohort. Sometimes as little sub-sections...tradies, tradies in utes, tradies in white hilux's, audi drivers, merc drivers etc etc. The term "cage"...is that familiar?

Oh, my personal fav.....4wd's. Land Crushers, Urban assault vehicles, etc

Enough guilt to go around.......


I can honestly say I have never had anyone come up to me and say "you motorists are a menace, always running red lights, breaking the speed limit, cutting in on people". Nope, that has never happened. On the other hand, mention in casual conversation that you ride and all of a sudden you are the president of the national bicycle association.

The funny thing about stereotypes is that often they are fairly accurate. You ARE more likely to experience aggressive behaviour from certain groups, and it is advisable to acknowledge them because it may save your life. I think it may have something to do with the built-in pattern recognition software we humans all run.

So yes from that point of view, I understand where the tendency to group all cyclists together and ascribe any bad behaviour to the whole group comes from, but it is infuriating to have it thrown at you as a reason for why you should not be allowed on the road at all.
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby human909 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:05 pm

silentC wrote:
fat and old wrote:I dunno....I reckon the majority of posters here judge motorists as a cohort. Sometimes as little sub-sections...tradies, tradies in utes, tradies in white hilux's, audi drivers, merc drivers etc etc. The term "cage"...is that familiar?


I can honestly say I have never had anyone come up to me and say "you motorists are a menace, always running red lights, breaking the speed limit, cutting in on people". Nope, that has never happened. On the other hand, mention in casual conversation that you ride and all of a sudden you are the president of the national bicycle association.

The funny thing about stereotypes is that often they are fairly accurate.......


A few points to consider:

Stereotypes exist for a reason. However;
-You should never let your judging stereotypes interfere with direct experience of an individual
-You should be wary of out-group stereotypes which are loosely if not at all correlated with reality.

Cyclists are an out-group. Motorists are not. Many minorities are out-groups too.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby silentC » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:47 pm

Yes I certainly have an inkling into how it feels to be hated simply because of where you were born or the colour of your skin, not to diminish those struggles at all, against which mine pale into insignificance.
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby antigee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:48 pm

silentC wrote:I was discussing this topic with a fellow cyclist yesterday. Since we had a fatality here recently, there is a feeling amongst the cycling community that we have to all be paragons of virtue now more than ever because any slip reflects badly on us all and contributes to the general ill-feeling towards us. In other words, give them nothing to complain about.

This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.

Not that I am wanting to go running red lights or anything, but it's just the idea that we are 'being watched' and have to mind our p's and q's. It does make me want to do the wrong thing just to stick it to them in a way... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Some cyclists deliberately choose to break road rules, some drivers choose to deliberately break road rules - sometimes they are the same people just different modes of transport

People that excuse their less than considerate, sometimes dangerous behaviour by blaming other groups of road users are just finding a way to rationalise their own arrogant behaviour - stereotyping helps as a shortcut, probably stating the obvious, knobs are knobs meet them everywhere just more dangerous given a vehicle :D

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby fat and old » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Cyclophiliac wrote:
fat and old wrote:
silentC wrote:This infuriates me beyond words because I have absolutely no control over what other cyclists might do, and I don't see motorists on the whole being judged by the poor behaviour of some of them. It's even more annoying when you consider that most of us ARE motorists. The whole thing is just so ridiculous.



I dunno....I reckon the majority of posters here judge motorists as a cohort. Sometimes as little sub-sections...tradies, tradies in utes, tradies in white hilux's, audi drivers, merc drivers etc etc. The term "cage"...is that familiar?

Oh, my personal fav.....4wd's. Land Crushers, Urban assault vehicles, etc

Enough guilt to go around.......

True, but how many cyclists write angry letters in various media, having a go at motorists in general, and demanding they all be made accountable for the actions of only some of them? There's a difference between us being justifiably angry at being continually put in danger by careless or malicious motorists driving dangerous vehicles, and the continual prejudice we have to endure as a minority group.


Apart from Dave and Sean? Probably a few more but your point makes sense to me.


Some cyclists deliberately choose to break road rules, some drivers choose to deliberately break road rules - sometimes they are the same people just different modes of transport


I’ve long thought along these lines....a hoon is a hoon. Mode of transport only amplifies or decreases the effect on others. I’m esp. suspicious of the relatively large number of current and ex motorcyclists here :twisted:

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby fat and old » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:57 am

Reading a few threads, posting a few posts and this thread popped back into me head.

In one post, the contributer saw the need to make the point that the two vehicles that rorted him were "a tradies van" and a "4wd". I've never seen anyone describe a Toyota corolla.
Another poster saw fit to make sure he pointed out the nationality of an offender.

I could go on, but meh...we're cyclists and that makes us infallible 8)

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby DrShifty » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:50 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:[color=#FF0000]

While people should not hold me responsible for things I do not do, the world works as the world works. So I and others here get to wear some of your selfish self entitlement.



That's OK, Colin. When we find out who the real perpetrators are we'll stop blaming you for their stuff. :)

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby silentC » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:22 am

fat and old wrote:Reading a few threads, posting a few posts and this thread popped back into me head.

In one post, the contributer saw the need to make the point that the two vehicles that rorted him were "a tradies van" and a "4wd". I've never seen anyone describe a Toyota corolla.
Another poster saw fit to make sure he pointed out the nationality of an offender.

I could go on, but meh...we're cyclists and that makes us infallible 8)

Like a dog with a bone :)

The point being made is that it is ridiculous to use the actions of some cyclists as a reason to want to ban us all from certain roads (or all roads depending on the level of fascism). The same argument could be used to suggest banning all cars. That line is pursued by people who aren't really thinking it through.

And further, to expect that we all now have to be paragons of virtue, even though I have no intention of breaking the law, is galling, especially when you consider how little attention many motorists pay to the road rules, and don't get me started on so called professional drivers. Then link that to the actual relative harm done.

I get it, I understand it, but I don't have to like it.

And yes, tradies in utes, in my experience, are very likely to close pass or abuse you. Much more so than Toyota Corolla drivers :)

Anyway the poor tradies will just have to suck it up like we are expected to ;)
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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby redned » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:29 pm

fat and old wrote:Reading a few threads, posting a few posts and this thread popped back into me head.

In one post, the contributer saw the need to make the point that the two vehicles that rorted him were "a tradies van" and a "4wd". I've never seen anyone describe a Toyota corolla.
Another poster saw fit to make sure he pointed out the nationality of an offender.

I could go on, but meh...we're cyclists and that makes us infallible 8)


Its middle-aged male tradies in lycra in Toyota Corollas that get up my goat (MAMTILITCs if you like).

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby Scintilla » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:44 pm

If by "middle-aged" you mean 20-40 year olds then I could probably agree with you. Experience their arrogance ALL-THE-TIME on my commute home (4.30 to 5 pm). Generally I regard these as younger than middle-aged.

BTW, I do not think any people riding bikes and experiencing their aggro are asking for any particular group of people to be banned from driving or prosecuted as a group. We are just asking for a modicum of respect, and that such drivers adhere fully to the letter and intent of the laws that they have been granted a licence to follow while driving.

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Re: A sense of entitlement?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:09 pm

I find it amazing, but not at all surprising, that a simple post about a small group of arrogant cyclists morphed so quickly into a tribal thread of drivers vs riders (who are usually one and the same btw). No wonder trolls find it so easy to get a bite. :roll:

And of course, many are claiming not to be as unfair in their treatment of motorists as are motorists are of them when, by the content of their posts, they very much appear to be so. Or, to put it another way, "I'm not racist but..."

Maybe it's time this thread was put to bed.
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