High Pressure Gravel Tyres
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High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:46 am
I'm a 105kg clydesdale so high pressure and a smaller contact patch is my friend on the road and a taller profile (coming with width) for lower pressure is my friend in the forest. So what tyres have I missed, throw me a bone here
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby ldrcycles » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:56 am
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Mugglechops » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:57 am
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:15 am
I've just looked at the Continental range and they seem to go up to 85psi at 37 wide.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Thoglette » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:36 pm
Adding 15psi to your already overinflated tyres will make the ride less comfortable and will significantly increase the risk of a blowout. It might also make you slower.
The problem with your Maxxis is that the construction of the carcass is (relatively) stiff compared to "open tubular" type construction of the best non-tubular tyres.
Products from Challenge (e.g Strada Bianca); Compass and similar should be on your radar, depending on how fast you want to spend.
Panaracer and Conti have some reasonable product too at more reasonable price points but shipping can easily double the nominal price depending on where shop. (My recent experience with them is all in the 630 ETRO size)
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Duck! » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:53 pm
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Defy The Odds » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:00 pm
You actually increase rolling resistance by going to such high pressures.
I have a Toughroad SLR GX 0 and run 40c WTH Nanos have run them as low as 35psi but 40psi is the sweet spot for both road and gravel.
75 would break my back
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby eeksll » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:05 pm
I suggest OP atleast look into the specs of the rims s/he has.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:10 pm
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Duck! » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:02 pm
Here's the basics: First measure the tyre profile height with no weight on the bike. Measure the gap from the ground to the edge of the rim at the lowest point. Allowing for the thicker tread belt, a 40mm wide tyre may have a profile height around 45mm, but it will vary by the individual tyre model. The measure you come up with is your reference point, so let's go with hypothetical 45mm.
Now sit on the bike, and have your assistant repeat the measurements front and rear. The resulting figure should be 15% less than your reference. 15% of 45mm (.8 x 45) is 38.25. Getting down the fractions of a millimetre is a bit on the tricky side to measure, so as long as you're within a mm or so it'll be OK. Adjust your pressures to achieve the desired figure. Note that due to your weight distribution on the bike, the front will need a lower pressure to achieve the 15% squish.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Mugglechops » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:09 am
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:48 am
So my Plan B doesn't work and the only way to reduce losses is to use a skinnier tyre for smooth surfaces; and for anything less than smooth, using a wider tyre at lower pressures will make stuff all difference. Whilst there's some super smooth roads around here in places, generally our local roads are rough blue metal with repairs all over the place so I'm thinking now it's not even worth my trouble to do Plan A and build a set of wheels for skinny tyres either. So my theory now is I should look at buying some wider tyres with taller profiles that can be more pinch proof in the forest with lower pressures and then for road rides I'll just have to pedal harder to keep up on the smooth stuff and lap up the ride on the dodgy blue metal when the lightweights on their carbon exotica are getting smashed by the bumps. All great info on here, thanks
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby cyclotaur » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:06 am
I've always ridden 25/28c road tyres anyway at probably 85-90 psi max, and lately a bit less, say 70-75psi. But putting much less pressure in the fatter tyres I run on my alternate wheelsets has taken me awhile.
I now put about 60psi into my big tyres (Schwalbe Marathon Mondial 35 - really a touring tyre) when I pump them up, and then over a few weeks just let them deflate until they start to feel a bit too spongy on the road, at which point I pump them back to 60psi. They get down to about 35-40psi before I feel the need to re-inflate them. In the meantime these wheels float effortlessly over trail bumps, gravel and poor road surfaces. The heavier bike is a little slower uphill on the road but that's due to the extra 2-3kgs more than the tyre pressures, and it descends like a rock. So the gravel bike/tyre combo is no slouch on road rides, and very comfortable, though I recently acquired a 2017 Giant TCR for specific longer, climb-ier road rides.
The sweet spot for the bigger tyres on the g-bike, over all conditions, seems to be around 50psi. For reference I'm about 1.75m/75kg.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby uart » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:04 pm
Hi Paddles, forget about the whole skinny/wide thing as being the major determining factor in rolling resistance, it's been shown to be flawed logic.Paddles wrote:So my Plan B doesn't work and the only way to reduce losses is to use a skinnier tyre for smooth surfaces; and for anything less than smooth, using a wider tyre at lower pressures will make stuff all difference.
The main components of tyre loss are hysteresis losses in compression/expansion of the tyre casing (not to be confused with compression/expansion of the air inside it). And similarly with deflection of the tread, particularly if you've got knobblies.
So a tyre with subtle sidewalls and casing - one that can be flattened to form a contact patch with minimal force (as measured without any air pressure) - that's what constitutes an efficient tyre. Variation in RR due to width is almost a second order (minimal) effect. Though it's important to choose a width that allows you to run at a suitable pressure for the terrain, both for comfort and to avoid high suspension losses.
The biggest correlating factor in tyre rolling resistance (RR) isn't with width, it's actually with the tyre durability (unfortunately). That's not to say that a low RR tyre can't be durable, if you've got the right materials and construction. But for any given materials and construction type, the more durable that you make it in terms of tread thickness, and sidewall rubber coating thickness, and ply strength and thickness etc, then the higher RR you get.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:37 pm
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Thoglette » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:23 pm
That'd be me. And I said "relatively", and that is relative to the best that you can buy.Paddles wrote: someone earlier stated that the Maxxis sidewalls were stiff
The Maaxis Re-fuse 40mm product appear (based on a number of online reviews and comments) to be pretty darn similar to their other re-fuse products. That is: pretty good performance at a reasonable price, with some stiffness penalty from the puncture guard. So if (like me) you've been happy with their other stuff, you should be happy with these to. Note that the 40mm version isn't on special as often as the 23mm!!!
Unfortunately orthodox thought (hello Conti. Schwalbe, Panaracer) is that you can't sell 32mm+ tyres without some sort of puncture guard. So most of the reasonably priced stuff seems to be blessed (or cursed) with this nonsense.
However, if you can spend twice as much, well, there's better options available.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby LateStarter » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:52 pm
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:54 pm
I checked out the rollingresistance website and there's not much for these types of tyres.
Edit: I've now read Sheldon Brown's tyre page and can recommend it to anyone who wants the info in layman's terms. I just rummaged through the shed and found a pair of Kenda Kwik Bitumen 700x40C with 60TPI so i'm going to chuck them on with 50psi before my next forest ride out of curiosity and see how they go.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Thoglette » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:29 pm
Rolling drum testing is now pretty much discredited.LateStarter wrote:"...data available on rolling resistance for tyres..."
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com
As before: Challenge (Strada Bianca) and Compass (Barlow Pass extralight) for starters.Paddles wrote:Throw some brands/models at me Thoglette.
All a bit rich for my purse (sometimes ETRO 630 is a blessing)
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby LateStarter » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:14 pm
I have done enough riding on crappy roads sucking the life from my wheels to agree that "suspension losses" are also important but Mr Heine's blog does not "discredit" drum testing as an indication of rolling resistance. I note Mr Heine has some skin in the game and that his tires don't actually rate as high in the drum test rankings as he might like as they return higher wattages in the tests. The bicycle rolling resistance test does use a slightly rough drum (rather than completely smooth) as a nod towards suspension losses and the WheelEnergy test lab uses both smooth and rough drums. The BRR site has done interesting comparisions between different sizes of the same tire and does support lower RR for wider tires (at the same pressure) but the trend sometimes falls off again with even wider tires in the series.Thoglette wrote:Rolling drum testing is now pretty much discredited.LateStarter wrote:"...data available on rolling resistance for tyres..."
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com
As there are no free lunches you have to decide if you want the lowest rolling resistance (RR) and accept the more delicate sidewalls and thinner tread with resultant more punctures or you go for stiffer, harder, difficult to penetrate walls and tread, thus less punctures but higher RR or you try to pick something in between. I don't have any spare watts available so tend to something with a lower RR but also hate flats so want some protection too. At the end of 200kms I have to conserve every watt I have.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:59 pm
Cheers Thoglette, I'll look those tyres up.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:14 pm
I checked out the Challenge Strada Bianca 36, Compass Barlow Pass 38 and also the Panaracer Gravel King Slick 38. I wasn't going to go tubeless yet even though my wheels are tubeless ready and was willing to sacrifice a bit of rolling resistance as a trade for some puncture protection so found the Shikoro was the best compromise.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Thoglette » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:19 pm
Great. Decision made!Paddles wrote:Ok gents, the feedback is that I've ordered a pair of Soma Shikoro in 700x42C.
If you don't mind, where did you order them from? In .au or elsewhere?
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:42 pm
The Australian importer for the Panaracer products (Soma, Panaracer, Compass) is SCV Imports (they've got a website) and there's an online bike shop in Melbourne called "Commuter Cycles" that sells all these products too.
Thanks for steering me towards the info on tyres, it's been a good learn. I've dismissed going tubeless as a "gimmick" in the past (and seeing a bloke one day a fair way from anywhere with a flat tubeless tyre and no tube didn't help) but I can now see that the benefit is not just pinch proofing your tyre, but also removing some resistance from the sidewall.
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Re: High Pressure Gravel Tyres
Postby hamishm » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:56 pm
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