23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
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23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby silentC » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:59 am
A week ago I found a crack in my rim where a spoke head has pulled through. Because I don't have a spare wheel for the bike, I am currently riding my 1993 Giant Allegre. This bike runs 23mm Continental GP4000S, same tyre as the other bike but smaller. What I found was that I got up punchy little climbs a fair bit quicker than I do on the Merida. This seemed counter intuitive to me because not only am I running smaller tyres, but the bike is a couple of kg heavier, being steel. In fact a couple of the guys I ride with commented on how well I went up the climbs on it.
I realise there may be more going on here, but I have had three rides on it now and it definitely feels as though I am getting up the climbs faster. It all falls apart on longer climbs because the weight of the bike and lack of lower gears becomes more of a factor. But certainly for punchy short climbs it feels as though it is quicker.
One of the other guys was on 25mm for awhile but he has gone back to 23mm much for the same reason. He reckons he climbs better on the 23mm tyres. In that case you're talking about different tyres on the same bike. It is still anecdotal and hard to quantify, just wondering what other people have found?
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby Derny Driver » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:11 am
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby redsonic » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:43 am
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby uart » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:07 pm
It really depends on the surface. Narrow tyres at higher pressure are still very efficient if the surface is smooth enough. Depending on the surface, there is no reason why 23c @100psi couldn't be more efficient than 25c @90.silentC wrote:So the received wisdom these days is wider tyres at lower pressure.
The difference is likely to be pretty small though, a couple of Watts or so at best.
By "punchy little climbs" I assume you mean short enough duration really to hit them and keep up speed with a good short burst of power. No idea of exactly what sort of power levels that is for you personally, but say for example a 430W burst with 82kg (bike plus rider). A 2kg increase in bike weight would set you back about 8.5W on a 6% climb. I honestly doubt that the differences in tyres you mention would account for this.
So I suspect other factors at play. How energetic you feel varies a bit from day to day. Quite minor differences in wind and air density, even when it's a light wind that's not really very apparent, these can have an effect of more than couple of Watts. Also your fit and positioning on the bike will effect the efficiency that you transfer to power to the pedals. You might be getting power to the pedals slightly more efficiently on the alternate bike.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby g-boaf » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:45 pm
I think there are other factors at play, if the tyres are similar weight. What will give benefits is very light wheels. I have a set of extremely light carbon wheels, they are amazing up hill - but equally terrible for braking going downhill.
I reckon the better gains would be achieved by training more to gain power and drop weight.silentC wrote:One of the other guys was on 25mm for awhile but he has gone back to 23mm much for the same reason. He reckons he climbs better on the 23mm tyres. In that case you're talking about different tyres on the same bike. It is still anecdotal and hard to quantify, just wondering what other people have found?
I don't ride much hills here in Australia, but I do go overseas and do some massive rides in the mountains and I go okay, so the 26mm tyres I run can't be too much of a problem. Hills are all about the right training.
The short hills might just be you having more momentum ahead of it.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby NASHIE » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:25 pm
More this i think. Currently riding a Vitus 979 Frame with modern running gear, 23 front 25 rear. It’s lighter than my Clamont SLX steel frame with exactly same running gear, but Clamont frame just climbs so much better. Over a big climb not much in it, but stiffer Clamont frame wins when on the gas.uart wrote: Also your fit and positioning on the bike will effect the efficiency that you transfer to power to the pedals. You might be getting power to the pedals slightly more efficiently on the alternate bike.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby silentC » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:28 pm
It's a bit hard to be objective, I suppose I might have just been a bit fresher those last couple of rides, but I certainly didn't feel it. I got on those little climbs and just felt like I could go that bit harder than usual. I got dropped on the straight though
Maybe nothing in the tyres, I was just trying to work out how I felt better on the old bike even though it weighs a tonne
Another thing is the Giant is race geometry whereas the Merida is an 'endurance' frame.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby Duck! » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:15 pm
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby silentC » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:16 am
Anyway I didn't feel particularly fresh this morning and Strava agreed
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby macca33 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:35 am
cheers
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby Jmuzz » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:02 am
The tyre/rim differences will be single digit watts, which is just the smallest extra subconscious effort or tapering training a bit.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby silentC » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:23 am
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby rodneycc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:35 am
Not sure why the back doesn't bother me but the wider front tyre does??
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby madmacca » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:24 pm
Ya know, I think it might just be the 40 deg day that defeated you, not the tyres. And depending on the mix, it might just be that you were sinking into the tarmac.rodneycc wrote:Yeah I'm with you on this one Silent. Narrower harder tyres on climbs. Even worst are 28c on the front at 80psi. Did this on a 40deg day up in the hills and it defeated me. Just seemed to sink into the tarmac and really wasn't rolling freely.
Not sure why the back doesn't bother me but the wider front tyre does??
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby silentC » Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:58 pm
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby rodneycc » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:45 pm
yeah I still keep to that story of the tyres rather than the engine The indignity of walking the bike up a hill should just never happenmadmacca wrote:Ya know, I think it might just be the 40 deg day that defeated you, not the tyres. And depending on the mix, it might just be that you were sinking into the tarmac.rodneycc wrote:Yeah I'm with you on this one Silent. Narrower harder tyres on climbs. Even worst are 28c on the front at 80psi. Did this on a 40deg day up in the hills and it defeated me. Just seemed to sink into the tarmac and really wasn't rolling freely.
Not sure why the back doesn't bother me but the wider front tyre does??
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby foo on patrol » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:22 am
Foo
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby g-boaf » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:56 am
I think I can find you some examples. I'm using 26mm tyres (the S-Works equivalent to 25mm) and they are vastly better than the narrower 23mm Continental tyres I used to use. Cornering grip is way better and they are so much nicer over bumpy roads, especially bumpy high speed descents. They also roll a lot better too.foo on patrol wrote:Still yet to find a wider tyre being betterer than a narrow one.
Foo
Despite that, if the engine isn't working, no tyres are going to save you. Call me old fashioned.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby rodneycc » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:08 pm
I remembered your post last time on these tyres so I had a closer look (well I didn't actually get my hands on one) at these Turbo's and got a bit confused with the Cotton ones vs the Non Cotton ones. The Non Cotton ones reviews weren't great so I chased some cotton Turbo's down on Bike Exchange (because I couldn't find them anywhere else - maybe I should of tried my LBS) but they wanted like $100 for one so I've gone F...Forget that... And just bought the Pirelli Velo's instead for a try (which really aren't much diff to the GP4000SII). Anyway will wait a few months for the GP5000 to test out.g-boaf wrote: I think I can find you some examples. I'm using 26mm tyres (the S-Works equivalent to 25mm) and they are vastly better than the narrower 23mm Continental tyres I used to use. Cornering grip is way better and they are so much nicer over bumpy roads, especially bumpy high speed descents. They also roll a lot better too.
Despite that, if the engine isn't working, no tyres are going to save you. Call me old fashioned.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby foo on patrol » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:34 pm
I'm using Robino Pro's and they corner better than GP4000s and were only $23 each. Never been a fan of wide tyres, even when I was in the State Squad for the Track as a young bloke. Train on heavy, race on light.g-boaf wrote:I think I can find you some examples. I'm using 26mm tyres (the S-Works equivalent to 25mm) and they are vastly better than the narrower 23mm Continental tyres I used to use. Cornering grip is way better and they are so much nicer over bumpy roads, especially bumpy high speed descents. They also roll a lot better too.foo on patrol wrote:Still yet to find a wider tyre being betterer than a narrow one.
Foo
Despite that, if the engine isn't working, no tyres are going to save you. Call me old fashioned.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby g-boaf » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:17 pm
foo on patrol wrote:I'm using Robino Pro's and they corner better than GP4000s and were only $23 each.g-boaf wrote:I think I can find you some examples. I'm using 26mm tyres (the S-Works equivalent to 25mm) and they are vastly better than the narrower 23mm Continental tyres I used to use. Cornering grip is way better and they are so much nicer over bumpy roads, especially bumpy high speed descents. They also roll a lot better too.foo on patrol wrote:Still yet to find a wider tyre being betterer than a narrow one.
Foo
Despite that, if the engine isn't working, no tyres are going to save you. Call me old fashioned.
I used to like GP4000s, not any more. When I'm going down a treacherous bumpy descent - I'll take the wider tyres. They don't slow me down any, and I ride fairly big hills. I wouldn't go any wider though - unless I were going to ride on cobbled roads, which I might do next year, nothing set in concrete yet.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:49 am
A good quality wide tyre does not roll any slower, or faster, than a narrower tyre on smooth surface. Factor in a coarse road surface though and the narrower is slower.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:50 pm
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby g-boaf » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:13 pm
Might have to bring Foo over to France next year, I reckon Col de Sarenne would be fun on 23mm tyres, what do you think? That was one of the worst condition 'road' surfaces I've ever seen. There were some nasty waves across it at various points and also some massive holes, you dare not hit those - it'd be game over. Cool to ride along there though.singlespeedscott wrote:I’ll never go back to narrow tyres. My 30mm tyres are in another realm of comfort and grip compared to the 23mm bone shakers that I used in the past. My fastest climb times have been on wider tyres and my descent speed is in another realm.
A good quality wide tyre does not roll any slower, or faster, than a narrower tyre on smooth surface. Factor in a coarse road surface though and the narrower is slower.
I did that climb from Barage du Chambon, 13km at 7.5% average, maximum around 13%, then heading down the very rough bit before getting to Alpe d'Huez - that's just crazy fun. Going the other way you climb the worst section and descend on the better surfaced but more technical bit.
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Re: 23mm 100psi faster on short climbs?
Postby rodneycc » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:02 pm
Found a place that stock those Specialized Tyres. I didn't know they have the S-works and Pro Turbo's (aside from the Cotton's). Couldn't see stock of the 26mm in the S-works.g-boaf wrote:I think I can find you some examples. I'm using 26mm tyres (the S-Works equivalent to 25mm) and they are vastly better than the narrower 23mm Continental tyres I used to use. Cornering grip is way better and they are so much nicer over bumpy roads, especially bumpy high speed descents. They also roll a lot better too.foo on patrol wrote:Still yet to find a wider tyre being betterer than a narrow one.
Foo
Despite that, if the engine isn't working, no tyres are going to save you. Call me old fashioned.
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