Migrating from fast road upright rider to recumbent

[vosadrian]

Hi All,

I have been a fairly quick traditional (upright) road bike rider over the last decade doing 5-15k kms per year in recreational, racing and commute riding. I love Strava and have many KOMs and can generally climb in the top 10% or so of a leaderboard and ride fast roads with average speeds around mid 30kph. Unfortunately my back is causing me many issues for the last 6 years and there is no solution to that in sight, and it is time for me to consider other options that allow me to continue to enjoy cycling without as much back pain. Lately on my road bike I can last about an hour with moderate pain and then after that, it quickly becomes unbearable and rides over 2 hours are agony.

So I have come here to get some opinions on transition to recumbent. I am a rider who does most of my riding alone but sometimes in bunchs. I typically do about 50:50 gorges(hills):flat roads. So I want to be able to climb a 8-12 minute 5% climb fairly efficiently (although I realise I am likely to be slower). I mostly ride on roads with cars so I want the capability to continue that without causing too much change to the way I interact with cars (don't want to take up too much road space and want to capability to sneak up between cars in not moving traffic). I want some speed so I can maintain averages of 35kpg on flat fast roads.

Initial research has led me to conclude that I do not want an enclosed fairing type bike as that would not be suitable for every day road riding and really seems to be just for fast flat road riding.... aside from the cost!! A trike seems to be difficult to ride in the same way as a 2 wheeled bike in traffic just because it takes up a lot more road space. So am I right to think some sort of 2 wheeled non-faired recumbent is the best fit for me? Any recommendations for something to get to Sydney?

Am I going about this the right way? Will I be happy with a recumbent after being so happy previously with an upright bike? I like the freedom of a road bike. I have to admit that I do hop gutters etc. I like carving up a nice descent. Not sure how a recumbent will fit into that. I realise that bunch riding is going to be interesting if I can do it at all. Not sure how a recumbent would fit into that environment. If I go the recumbent way am I setting myself up for a costly exercise that ends in dissappointment as I can't do things that I love about upright bike riding?

I am not about to commit to going this way. This post is really just a bit of investigation to determine if I should take this further. The best thing that could happen for me would be for my back to improve and I could just continue cycling the way I love to do, but in the absence of that happening I am looking for the next best option.

Cheers!

[queequeg]

Am I going about this the right way? Will I be happy with a recumbent after being so happy previously with an upright bike? I like the freedom of a road bike. I have to admit that I do hop gutters etc. I like carving up a nice descent. Not sure how a recumbent will fit into that. I realise that bunch riding is going to be interesting if I can do it at all. Not sure how a recumbent would fit into that environment. If I go the recumbent way am I setting myself up for a costly exercise that ends in dissappointment as I can't do things that I love about upright bike riding?

I do some Audax riding with guys on Recumbent bikes. I don't think you need to be concerned about the speed - you will be riding faster than you were on a road bike, at least on flat and downhill roads. When I did my 600km Audax, there were two riders on recumbent two wheelers, and I hung onto their wheels for as long as I could (80km), then the headwinds really picked up and their low aero positions saw them vanish into the distance. They also took some KOM's heading out of town with the tailwind.

Same on my most recent Audax ride, one of them showed up and shot past me and another rider on the M7 path like we were standing still, and we were riding at a mid-30's average speed at that point (from Castle Hill Metro down to the bubbler on the M7). Pretty sure on the big descent of the day into Picton, the recumbent rider tickled 100km/h. He took a Downhill KOM as well (https://www.strava.com/activities/4595985937).

I can't see any issues with bunch riding, at least socially. You probably won't be doing any pace lines though. The other riders will need to learn the different capabilities of the recumbent but I don't see that as a big issue. You'll have a bid advantage in many cases.
Your visibility to motorists is one concern. All the riders I know have mirrors, lots of reflective tape etc on the back. You aren't as low to the ground as a recumbent trike, but you are still much lower than a standard road bike.

[find_bruce]

I have ridden in various group rides with a Rotovelo Trisled (aka green rocket), recumbent tadpole trike & a high racer. The only difficulty was different pacing, even when average speed was the same - the green rocket in particular was slow up hills & much quicker down them.

Even with 2 wheel recumbents there are a bunch of variations, high, low & mid positions, different steering mechanisms etc.

Hopefully Zebee and recumbenteer will drop by to give you some suggestions based on experience.

[vosadrian]

This is just a feeling it out exercise at the moment. As stated, the best scenario would be to resolve back issues and keep riding a standard road bike which I love. With that in mind, I guess I am interested in what recumbent option best replicates the things I like about a standard road bike but overcomes the back pain issue. So I guess the recumbent option that is most like a standard road bike.

A little googling brings up the cruzbike brand and particularly the V20 which seems to be a recumbent like iteration of my current road bike... I ride an aero road bike (Venge) with a few compromises in practicality for performance, and the V20 seems to be the closest to that. It even seems to use most of the same group set stuff to a standard road bike (perhaps I could use me deep wheels etc.) and you seem to purchase a frameset and then build with similar components to a road bike build. Weight is probably a few kgs more than an equivalent road bike but should still get up hills OK. On the negative, there would a learning curve to ride it confidently. But I feel I would be happy with many aspect of this style of bike and should be able to match the average speeds I get on a road bike.

Anyway, that is just my initial research as someone ignorant on anything to do with this type of bike, so I am sure there is much I need to consider still.

Riding wise, I feel most of my riding could be replicated with a recumbent bike (not trike). The pace line stuff would be missed, but this is a small part of my riding in recent times. I guess the question is whether it will solve the main issue of my back, and whether I will get the same enjoyment to motivate me to stay fit. It is going to be a costly thing to get into, and I don't mind spending that if it opens me up to continue to enjoy cycling. Just don't want to spend the $$$ and regret it later.

[queequeg]

These are the recumbent bikes the two Audax riders had at the 600km ride. I couldn't keep up with them!

[zebee]

Those are M5s I think and famously fast and light. The tailboxes will help at speed.

Cruzbikes are fast but have a pretty steep learning curve because the front wheel drive affects the steering. Your pedalling has to be really smooth and you are engaging your arms whether you want to or not. Consensus seems to be they are faster up hills than most 'bents because they do come pretty light and you can sit in a more climb friendly position plus engaging the arms in the same way honking out of the saddle does.

Generally 'bents are fast on the flat and downhill but struggle up hill. Partly because of weight and partly because the aero laid back position doesn't seem to allow for the power you need to get up hills. Even spinning you need to put more goomph into the legs. Hip angle seems to be a big thing as to power generation.

RIding with a bunch is hard because of the speed differential. You fall off the back when the hills start to happen and bomb past the most aero of tucks once it's down down down.

If bunch riding is your thing you should probably get a Cruzbike and work hard at learning to ride it. If just riding is your thing then any of the high bottom bracket bikes will do but pay as much as you can afford for the lightest. Two wheelers have to be bought as a pig in a poke really because the only people who have many 'bents to try only have trikes. The guy at St Ives says it is because 2wheelers don't sell because test riders tend to fall off them....

Mine's a carbon fibre Encore and I'm slow but it isn't. Even with its heavy wheels and rack and lights it is a quick easy bike. I'd offer a ride but it was custom built and I suspect you are a tad taller than 5'2".

hop over to www.bentrideronline.com and nose about, especially in the climbing threads.

[vosadrian]

Thanks for the info zeebee!

So if considering a performance oriented bent that can still be used for commuting, are the Cruzbike V20 and M5 the main contenders? Which is more economical to get into? I guess a consideration with that is that if I am coming from a fast road bike, I have some descent equipment on that (wheels etc.) that may be able to be used on the cruzbike? I realise the cruzbike has the steeper learning curve with FWD, but which is better for doing some reasonable hills... like a gorge climb a couple times a week.... assuming you are proficient on an upright bike to start with. Which is going to handle better in terms of descending down a technical descent (hairpins, bumps etc.). Which has more users in Australia for support?

I'm not too concerend about the bunch riding aspect as that is a small part of my riding. Mostly I tend to ride at times that suit me and they mostly don't suit others. If I can ride a few 50-100k rides a week alternating between Sydney Gorges, flat roads west of Sydney and the M7 cycle path along with commuting a about a 30k round trip to work a couple days a week, that is the main priority for me. I'm not seeking to ride a recumbent to be different. I would be happiest to stay on my current bike. I am just seeking to do what I like to do without the back pain issues that have limited my riding recently. I am the sort of person who likes to ride quick... and that aspect of a recumbent is appealing... but I don't know whether carving up Strava leaderboards with a recumbent seems very fair.

[LateStarter]

I get tempted but it has taken a long while for me to get up to my current (not very good) standard on an upright and don't think I have time to "master" a bent.

You may have seen it but watching this guy almost has me wanting to convert, it seems effortless for him, you need one (cruzbike vendetta) like his that "has already been taught to climb". PBP is like a huge 90 hr / 1200 km bunch ride

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50V3FIxT3JU it's a good 30 minute watch anyway, the "dashboard" helps in understanding his speed and the grade, he has a few other youtube videos, best is his "commute" and the 600 & 1000 rides through the Norway snow covered countryside. https://www.youtube.com/c/TorHovland/videos

[vosadrian]

Stepping back about 7 years ago I was in a pretty good place with my back and cycling and I had plans to have a go at TT. I did one and then bought some clip on aero bars with intentions of eventually going full hog TT rig. Unfortuantely my back stepped in at that point to stop that. The more I think about a bent, the more I consider it to be a back friendly and more usable alternative to what what I was planning back then! Make no mistake with me... if I go this way I will try to work out how to go as fast I can! I'm not really into the super long rides though. Happy with an odd century with most rides being 2-3 hours.

[skyblot]

I have an M5 CHR as my main ride. It's incredibly fast, stable, and comfortable. I'm not particularly fit, or strong, but the CHR has me riding alongside riders of far greater athletic ability... Come the hills, and I am still a very average body and simply don't have the power to throw at climbs.

I've done enough performance testing of my bike to have a pretty confident CdA number (0.182), and the power meter agrees. M5 advertise the CHR as 48kmh (AT) 250 watts...
If it's fast you want, the only thing faster will be a velomobile...

Of course it's not perfect, but I ignore that bit

[vosadrian]

Thanks skyblot. It does sounds appealing for what I like to do. I'm not sure how I would take the odd looks you would get riding something different, but I guess it would be similar riding a TT rig!!

I guess a big consideration with which type of bike is what is available here in Australia. Preference for me is to try something second hand so that if it does not work out I can move it on without much lost $$. But it does not seem there is much second hand available locally and international shipping is expensive these days. Next option is new. I could lose a lot of $$ so want to choose the right option if I go that way. I feel with my style of riding including significant hills that the FWD MBB and 700C wheels is best for me, but I don;t really know!!

[zebee]

viewtopic.php?t=99897 says the vendetta is fast.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1868550136802056/ has a suspended cruzbike for sale that's cheap. Not a fast bike but will give you a feel for what one is like and if you learn to manage that you will also have some idea if the performance version will do what you want.

[saintplc]

G’day All,

Vosadrian, I migrated over to recumbents about 2 years ago after some neck, shoulder and biceps issues made uprights less comfortable. I was riding Moulton uprights, which are fully suspended small wheel uprights and my speed was the same as I was on my road bike. I was riding about 15,000-17,000 km a year. Because my weekend rides take in the Royal National Park I do a fair bit of climbing and my 70 kg weight means I climb quite well compared to other guys on lighter uprights than my Moultons. So, while I’m not a fast climber like your times, I would say I climb quite fine.

Because of my shoulder (and neck) issues I wanted a recumbent that had a fairly upright seat and could also climb. I also wanted a proven design that was pretty well reviewed. Being a bit old school, I was keen on the alloy steel frame too. So I chose a Lightning P-38 recumbent bike. Because of the upright bike it isn’t as streamlined as some other recumbents, but the trade-off is that it climbs quite well. But while it isn’t as streamlined I was immediately 1.5-2 km/h faster than I was on my uprights. My head is at approximately saddle height of an upright which just means less frontal area hence why it is faster.

What about climbing, almost line ball performance with my times. In a 10% segment near Waterfall my P-38 is 1 second off my best time on the Moulton. On the 10% Otford Wall climb (which has a part that rises to almost 20%) the P-38 is 8 seconds off the Moulton across the 8 minute climb, and that gap is mostly due to a stuffed gear change as the grade ramped up sharply. In other words, there isn’t much in it. But full disclosure, I was an in the saddle climber, I trained myself to do that because the Moulton’s front suspension “pogoed” when climbing out of the saddle. Never an issue on long climbs but those sprinting short burst climbs I was never as fast on.

The P-38 won’t win any prizes looks wise, it isn’t a modern carbon frame or hard-shell seat, but it works. Moreover, it is a great all-rounder. I commute on it in the suburbs, do double century rides on the weekend, ride in the rain etc, in other words it is versatile and has replaced my upright quite well.

I just recently bought a second hand M5 CHR. That’s a different beast indeed, more reclined, more extreme and dare I say less versatile. It’s like comparing a tri-bike to a road bike. It will definitely be faster than the P-38 on the flats and downhill, I can see that already. Uphill? Well time will tell.

If you are interested in checking out my speeds feel free to check out my rides on Strava. Here is a link to a local ride I do each year where we ride up and down each hill in the Royal National Park. https://www.strava.com/activities/4856512041

This is the second time I have done it on the P-38 and it was 1 km/h faster average speed than last year and that again was faster than me on my uprights.

If you buy a recumbent you just have to accept looking different and you will stand out. I was used to this being a Moulton rider but even then, the recumbent was a whole other level. But if you are friendly most roadies are polite, friendly back and often curious. Some are judgemental, but they are poseur jerks so who cares what they think.

Finally, last year I posted my best yearly distance: 21,007 km. Partly possible because the P-38 made the long distance rides so much easier to live with and enjoy.

Happy hunting.

Cheers,
Paul

[vosadrian]

Thanks for the long post Paul!

I ended up trying a few recumbents (with help from Dome) and I think I actually rode the M5 you got recently. I picked them up fairly quickly and I decided that the Cruzbike V20 seemed the closest fit to what I was looking for, but I was unable to try one. I ended up finding one for sale in Melbourne and purchasing it. Have had it for almost 2 weeks and just doing short rides in my street to get used to manourvering it. It is quite a bit more difficult than the other bents I tried, but I can now do figure 8s on a narrow street which I want to do before taking it on a longer ride. Not much riding over the last week with the rain, but hoping to do my first longer ride on it this evening. I've done very little riding this year so far, so I am pretty unfit. I plan to embrace that and just slowly work my way into learning to ride this thing. If I was fit I would be pushing myself for some PRs straight up, but I am trying to learn some patience!!

[warthog1]

I looked that bike up.
Looks good

[vosadrian]

First ride on M7 path yesterday evening. I was much slower than my upright, but was very slow through corners and mostly cruising except for a bit near the end where I gave it a bit for a few minutes and it seemed to go quite well. It will be a while before I can position the bike on a path where I want it, so I will hold off before riding on a road until I can control it much better.

Good news is my back felt no worse... where on the DF it would have been aching. It is good to be able to consider doing longer rides in comfort becoming a possibility again.

[find_bruce]

Great to hear it’s working for you. Learning a new skill is always fun

[zebee]

Good to hear you are able to get out and about. Lots of M7 to practice on! And the odd short sharp climb...
What are you finding most difficult and what seems the easiest about the bike?

[queequeg]

First ride on M7 path yesterday evening. I was much slower than my upright, but was very slow through corners and mostly cruising except for a bit near the end where I gave it a bit for a few minutes and it seemed to go quite well. It will be a while before I can position the bike on a path where I want it, so I will hold off before riding on a road until I can control it much better.

Good news is my back felt no worse... where on the DF it would have been aching. It is good to be able to consider doing longer rides in comfort becoming a possibility again.

You’ll be flying past us on Audax rides like Dome does before too long. I desperately tried to stay with him heading out of Forbes, and it was depressing seeing them almost effortlessly pull away in gusty headwinds, then go on to smash Strava KOMs when they got the tailwind.

There’s a group of recumbent riders doing the Oppy 24hr TTT tomorrow. Will be curious to see what distance they do!

[LateStarter]

...it was depressing seeing them almost effortlessly pull away...

Yes I get to say hello to Dome at the start of a 200 then he disappears a few minutes after the start, he finishes shortly after lunch and I am trying to get back before dark and as you say they seem to do it effortlessly. One day I might try a bent but doubt I could master it especially the harder front wheel drive ones like the cruzbikes which seem to climb much better than other recumbents. I regularly see bents at Centennial Park so they might be getting more popular. The Cruzbike S40 looks ideal for Audaxs

[skyblot]

One day I might try a bent but doubt I could master it especially the harder front wheel drive ones like the cruzbikes which seem to climb much better than other recumbents. I regularly see bents at Centennial Park so they might be getting more popular. The Cruzbike S40 looks ideal for Audaxs

It's just like riding a bike... I find most cyclists can manage a recumbent within minutes, particularly if it's a relatively upright seat. Well reclined ones are more challenging bit it is only practice. And yes, cruzbikes can be more challenging but even so, a lot of people love them.

[zebee]

The hardest part of learning to ride a hi racer recumbent is the start... Getting enough speed up to get the second foot onto the pedal. After a while keeping balanced while you get the 2nd foot up is natural.

(To a point. I did find that starting a loaded hi racer on a steep hill just wasn't happening. Low enough gear to ride up the hill meant I just couldn't get enough speed up and being short of leg I couldn't really use the free leg to paddle with.I learned that day to not stop halfway up a hill even if I did really need to adjust my shorts)

[vosadrian]

Good to hear you are able to get out and about. Lots of M7 to practice on! And the odd short sharp climb...
What are you finding most difficult and what seems the easiest about the bike?

I seem to be pretty coordinated at learning balance activities, so I MAY??? do better than average on this. My first attempt at a bent was on one of Dome's bikes. I think it was the Performer. I was able to ride laps at the armory in a few minutes. Then another time I met with him and rode his optima baron which felt similar... maybe a little easier. The same time I rode an M5 that was for sale. It was a lot less stable then either of Dome's bikes but I was again able to ride it pretty quickly. These bikes were all similar style with a long chain and RWD. I had heard the Cruzbikes were more difficult and you were unlikely to be comfortable quickly and I would have liked to hire one for a few weeks but that was not an option so I purchased one on risk figuring I am normally good at this sort of thing.

So I followed the recommendations from Cruzbike to learn. This is basically starting with rolling down a hill to rolling with feet on pedals to pedalling down a hill and then working in turns and progressing to figure 8s. I did this in 10-15 minutes sessions over a week or so. I picked it up OK and was pretty confident doing figure 8s after a week or so. But it was much harder than the other bikes. You have to stop fighting yourself where you are trying to steer but pushing the ledals in the opposite direction with your feet. Getting up hills was difficult at first because you are pushing harder on the pedals. I was all over the road. I am getting better but still move around a metre os so side to side going up hills. Hopefully I can get that to stay on my line soon.

I did a ride on the weekend (Bubbler run). Still using basic pedals not clipped in. Still with the basic bike without aero wheels or anything. But I was able to do a bubbler run at 32kph average. I put in afair bit of effort and could not have gone much quicker at the moment. I am not fit as not have done much riding recently, but I think I could have gone quicker on my DF bike at similar perceived effort. I figure that is probably me just not have the same bent leg strength that will develop over time... and I am slower through the corners. But I am happy with the progress. I think I should be eclipsing my DF bike pace in a little while... and then I can start adding on my aero wheels, clipless pedals etc.

[vosadrian]

A couple months down since last update, but just adding here in case someone embarks on a similar path to me.

The Cruzbike Vendetta is a quick bike, and it is comfortable for my back. So those boxes are ticked. I am surprised that I was pretty quick straight away and have not got much quicker after a couple months of about 150km a week on it (over 2 rides). Part of that may be that I was all in the first few rides to see what I could do. I do find that in certain situations it is great... long flat sections without interruptions are great. It is quite a bit more effort to stop and get going than my DF. This is mainly due to the Look Keo pedals and the moving boom. Sometimes I get going without issue. Sometimes I wobble around trying to get going. I get quite nervous starting up a hill with cars nearby. Also, just standing waiting for lights is a bit more nervous with slippery road cleats and lying reclined. I actually slipped over once waiting at lights which was a little embarassing, but that was soon after I added the Look pedals and not since.

Hills... well the Vendetta is probably a good climbing recumbent compared to other bents, but I was pretty good at climbing a DF. There is no comparison at least until I get more climbing fit on the Vendetta. I got my DF out for the first time in ages today (first Gorge climb in 6 months) and did a hilly loop (800m elevation in 50km). I climb around 100m elevation in the first 2km from my house. I cruised up the first half feeling like I was not giving much effort and went a fair bit quicker than the Vendetta where I feel I am at 90% just trying to make it up the hill (and would not be game to try the second half at >15%). It is probably just a fitness thing. I really like having multiple positions on the DF (stand, seated, different position on saddle) to spread the load to different muscle groups. Certain muscles get really fatigued on the bent, and I can't really adjust to different positions to alleviate this. Of course my back was in a lot more pain for most of the ride on the DF and it is not on the bent, so I will stick with it. Surprisingly my DF ride was quicker than I expected, so the bent riding does maintain my DF fitness.

So for now, I will continue to do my flatter rides (which still seem to be more hilly than most people on bents do) on the bent, and when I need to do more serious climbing I will choose the DF and do a shorter ride so my back survives. I suspect I could not keep up with the bent on the flats with my DF... but most of my rides have hills at the beginning and end, and I find the bent speeds on the flat roads barely make up for the time lost in the hills at either end of the ride. Certainly if I start/finish the Garmin to not record the bits near my house, the bent is quicker.

I will get more serious with training come Spring. Hopefully I can get better at climbing on it, and then try some of my gorge climb loops.