Somewhat heartening to see 3 or 4 letters against this idea in the edition after.
Bikes in the Media
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby Mr Purple » Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:46 am
https://www.facebook.com/racqofficial/p ... g2NcY&_rdr
Yes, the car may have right of way in this scenario. But what percentage of cars turning left in this scenario haven't just deliberately sped past the cyclist and them immediately turned left? And what if there's a marked bike lane?
There's a very narrow line between having 'right of way' and 'deliberately running over another human being' here. As always, don't read the comments.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:31 pm
Yes indeed. It's very important to note that the question specifically says, " the cyclist is catching up to the yellow vehicle in slow traffic, who gives way, the driver or cyclist?
The implication here is that the cyclist is significantly faster than the traffic, and approaching from well behind. Many motorists however will not even register this and instead see it as them having carte blanche to simply left hook a cyclist whenever they want to.
In essence the question just relates to the laws around overtaking another vehicle, and you don't overtake a turning vehicle, so in that sense the answer of "the cyclist must give way" is absolutely correct. However, there are similar laws and responsibilities applicable to an overtaking car, and one is that you mustn't cut off the vehicle you're overtaking, which is precisely what many drivers will be doing in that situation. This question would be much more instructive to drivers if they instead emphasised how far in front of the cyclist an overtaking car should be, and how much time they should allow for the cyclist to see their indicator, before it is safe for them to turn like that.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby tpcycle » Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:57 pm
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby Mr Purple » Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:13 pm
I think this is the issue I have with the question.uart wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:31 pmThe implication here is that the cyclist is significantly faster than the traffic, and approaching from well behind. Many motorists however will not even register this and instead see it as them having carte blanche to simply left hook a cyclist whenever they want to.
'Here is this reasonably rare situation where a cyclist is riding faster than moving traffic and the driver ahead wishes to go left'.
When in reality the vast majority of the time it will be a motorist who has just passed the cyclist at speed and now wants to left hook them, or a motorist who is indicating left in stationary traffic. And therefore the vast majority when the motorist will be the one at fault.
Exactly this situation happened to me on Saturday - riding past a row of stationary cars in a marked bike lane ahead of a left hand turn lane, when the motorist in the middle indicated left and deliberately blocked the bike lane. A good 40m before the actual turn lane started. I'm sure they thought they had right of way according to the description above, but to me that is a) driving in the marked shoulder, and b) changing lanes on passing traffic.
I agree based on the comments the only thing a bunch of those mouth breathing morons took away from it was 'so I can left hook a bike at any time and it's all their fault? Excellent!' I especially like the bit where the RACQ said there being a marked bike lane there made no difference. Well, no, technically. But if you're driving in the marked bike lane before the intersection when there's a bike in it, then you've created a different problem.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:04 pm
Yes, that comes across very strongly in some of the comments unfortunately. Like this one:
Too bad that they didn't bother stating the relevant section on overtaking (particularly section b below), and to emphasise that this applies equally well if you are overtaking a cyclist.in a court of law the law should recognise the cyclist contributed to their demise as per the law racq just referred to.
The reality is that this is by far the more common problem. I often get cars that don't even bother waiting until the full length of the car (or truck) itself is past me before moving left or starting a left turn.144. Keeping a safe distance when overtaking
Subject to section 144A (1), a driver overtaking a vehicle—
(a)must pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision with the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle; and
(b)must not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past the vehicle to avoid a collision with the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:19 pm
That sounds reasonable, but I notice that they're very quick to point out problems but don't really offer any solutions.P!N20 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:51 pmLimited escape routes on new Melbourne bike path a safety risk to women, cyclists say
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-05/ ... /102051214
- Some section of that elevated cycleway will be encloses so that morons cannot lob rocks or bricks at passing cars or trucks.
- The path is no doubt elevated so that it doesn't have to cross side roads where turning cars can take them out, which is something that has already killed several cyclists using existing infrastructure in that area. These are also valid concerns.
So what does she propose as a solution to the problem that, sometimes on a cycle way, a rider must ride behind another rider for some length of time. What does she actually want there, women only cycleways?Ms Pereyra is a member of Bike West, which advocates for cycling infrastructure in Melbourne's western suburbs. She also ran as a Greens candidate in last year's state election.
"This is a systemic issue … spaces being designed by men for men," Ms Pereyra said.
"Women are being forced out of those spaces so they perpetually get more and more dominated by male users and by the behaviour and culture that comes along with that."
"Male cyclists will come and ride on my tail and sometimes it's completely innocent and they just don't realise the experience that the female rider might actually be having," she said.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby Thoglette » Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:25 pm
No. I don't think so. No more than she would be advocating for women only lifts, or women only trains.uart wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:19 pmSo what does she propose as a solution to the problem that, sometimes on a cycle way, a rider must ride behind another rider for some length of time. What does she actually want there, women only cycleways?"Male cyclists will come and ride on my tail and sometimes it's completely innocent and they just don't realise the experience that the female rider might actually be having," she said.
What she actually wants there is a little understanding that, for some women, having some male you don't know sitting on your clacker might be a bit off putting.
Which women? Victims of sexual assault or recent sexual harrassment or simply those who've supported their friends, mothers, sisters or daughters after such an event. And probably more so for those who are not peleton regulars.
I think the request is to be aware that drafting close and over a long distance (particularly on a lonely and dark stretch) might have same impact as, say, following a single woman closely down a darkened street.
I think that's it.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:30 pm
But there's a clear implication that it's men designing these cycleways that's the problem. Show me the design changes that you can make that will mean people don't sometimes have to ride behind another cyclist. It's bad enough the number of people here whining about "wheel suckers" any time that there's another cyclist behind them, but at least they are not gendered in their whining and moaning. And I'm not talking about 1cm off someone's wheel here, I've seen plenty of people still complaining even when it's two or three bike lengths.
The fact is that if I come up behind another cyclist (say I'm just 1 or 2 km/h faster) and the gradient turns up, then I'm unlikely to be able to pass. I might drop back, or I might just sit a couple of bike lengths back. And no I don't take gender into consideration when that happens.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby g-boaf » Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:17 pm
https://www.news.com.au/technology/moto ... 3f72c7bdb3
Poor rider.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby Thoglette » Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:17 pm
I think you're confusing two separate but related issues: the primary one is the apparent lack of escape options. Which is, to be fair, a direct result of a (likely male) designer (or standard writer) not having a clue.
The second is one sort of behaviour that might cause someone to consider taking the escape option. Which, frankly, I'd never considered (so paint me clueless).
There's a whole body of work around what makes spaces feel safe or unsafe, both generally and from a female perspective . I've only got a few articles in my pile, and they're mostly related to general cycling safety but 20 seconds searching The Conversation found this which'll start you off in the right direction (and be more fun than scholar.google.com)
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby Mr Purple » Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:22 am
Because that's so alien to us as men, we don't really consider it. And unfortunately there's no way they can tell the difference between the vast majority of us men who would go out of our way to defend them if necessary, and the small minority that they need defending from.
Plus it's in the code of chivalry that we need to provide a leadout in such situations rather than just tucking in behind, isn't it?
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:15 pm
You'll have to speak for yourself there. I'm mid 60's with a few health issues and it may well be physically impossible for me to be the hero and lead out in many situations.
She's run as a greens candidate and operates in a political space. So lets face it, if she had ever been assaulted on her bike we would be hearing about it long and loudly. So we can pretty safely read that "sometimes" statement as 100% of the time in her experience."Male cyclists will come and ride on my tail and sometimes it's completely innocent
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby vbplease » Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:48 am
Bit of a contradiction there.. but in the event I do speed up to someone I don't want to pass then, out of courtesy, I wouldn't be on their wheel long.. if the rider in front happened to be female, I'd make sure it wasn't longer than a short moment. It's really no difference to walking closely behind a female in any other situation. It's just having social awareness and respect for another females personal space.. which is different to a males personal space.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby familyguy » Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:18 am
Ditto. Often if I am not up to passing and pulling out a gap, I'll drop back further, to ensure the rider ahead doesn't think I'm drafting, tailgating, or pushing from behind. I do tend to leave more of a gap for women, but also for people who appear to be commuters or morning exercisers. This is one of those things to file under "things people shouldn't have to be conscious of but really do have to be conscious of". On the flip side, I'm happier to pass a guy and then sit 3-4 bike lengths ahead at a similar speed. But if it's a woman rider I'll keep pushing to get more of a gap and give that space back, albeit behind me. Not from any sort of "must pass woman because man=faster, woman=slower", I hope I'm not a caveman. I have seen some guys pass women, then get dropped on the next small hill cause they've dug too deep to get around because they are truly manly men and need to prove thus. If someone is riding alone, don't drag them along on your ride.vbplease wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:48 amBit of a contradiction there.. but in the event I do speed up to someone I don't want to pass then, out of courtesy, I wouldn't be on their wheel long.. if the rider in front happened to be female, I'd make sure it wasn't longer than a short moment. It's really no difference to walking closely behind a female in any other situation. It's just having social awareness and respect for another females personal space.. which is different to a males personal space.
Back to the OT, having an escape route for some people is important, men or women. Most men probably wouldn't admit they feel a threat or danger, which is what may lead to some of these situations. I have two friends (women) who live in unit blocks who won't go into the garbage rooms after certain times at night because it's an enclosed space with one door out and very isolated. Not that anything has happened, but because it could, which is similar to the original topic about the closed pathway above. What sort of residential arrangement is that for anyone?
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:42 pm
What? Because I'm mid sixties and fairly slow (say 22 to 26 km/hr on the flat), that there's literally no other bike path users slower than me? Not even 1 or 2 km/hr slower than that?
Sorry, but that's either a massive failure of logic or it shows a complete lack of awareness of the speed of other riders around you.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby warthog1 » Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:50 pm
Good on you for being out there mate.uart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:42 pm
What? Because I'm mid sixties and fairly slow (say 22 to 26 km/hr on the flat), that there's literally no other bike path users slower than me? Not even 1 or 2 km/hr slower than that?
Sorry, but that's either a massive failure of logic or it shows a complete lack of awareness of the speed of other riders around you.
I am a decade behind you and plan to still be tapping away also.
No real shared paths I ride on here apart from the O'Keefe rail trail.
I can still tap past most of the MTB riding people on there, so I do.
Just call out "passing on your right".
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:26 pm
I never sit right on the wheel of any riders (male or female) anyway, unless I'm riding with them as a group. That exact gap depends on the speed, but at slower speeds a few bike lengths is usually plenty.
I agree. The story claimed that the raised section of path was to have two emergency exits, plus CCTV monitoring. My point was that there are very good reasons to have the path raised there (to avoid trucks turning into side roads - something that has already killer several cyclists there). And once you've got a raised path, then there are good reasons to have some sections enclosed to thwart rock throwers (where adjacent to the roadway below). My gripe was that the story seemed to focus much more on just "men, how bad are they" rather than actual solutions that take the above considerations into account.Back to the OT, having an escape route for some people is important, men or women. Most men probably wouldn't admit they feel a threat or danger, which is what may lead to some of these situations. I have two friends (women) who live in unit blocks who won't go into the garbage rooms after certain times at night because it's an enclosed space with one door out and very isolated. Not that anything has happened, but because it could, which is similar to the original topic about the closed pathway above. What sort of residential arrangement is that for anyone?
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby vbplease » Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:46 pm
The contradiction I was referring to was defined by the two separate quotation boxes i.e. on one hand you catch up to riders 1-2kph slower, but on the other hand you don't want to be a "hero" and overtake them.. I get it, you don't want to overtake everyone you reach, neither do I.. but its just courtesy to make an adjustment i.e. hang back a good distance or depending on the ride/route add/skip a section to mix it up..uart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:42 pmWhat? Because I'm mid sixties and fairly slow (say 22 to 26 km/hr on the flat), that there's literally no other bike path users slower than me? Not even 1 or 2 km/hr slower than that?
Sorry, but that's either a massive failure of logic or it shows a complete lack of awareness of the speed of other riders around you.
You're free to ride your bike however you please, but don't be surprised if a female takes offense to riding on her back wheel because you lack some basic social awareness..
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby familyguy » Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:50 pm
Yes, I did eventually come to that understanding. We shouldn't have to, but we continue to need to do so, even if its blatant in front of several other considerations that come first.uart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:26 pmI agree. The story claimed that the raised section of path was to have two emergency exits, plus CCTV monitoring. My point was that there are very good reasons to have the path raised there (to avoid trucks turning into side roads - something that has already killer several cyclists there). And once you've got a raised path, then there are good reasons to have some sections enclosed to thwart rock throwers (where adjacent to the roadway below). My gripe was that the story seemed to focus much more on just "men, how bad are they" rather than actual solutions that take the above considerations into account.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby uart » Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:25 pm
And if you can manage to read a whole extra 4 words ahead of that you'll see that I said
So let me explain this to you very slowly. A cyclist on a better or faster bike may easily cruise a couple of kph faster than another rider on the flats, and yet be slower than them once the gradient turns up. This is just so basic, something that any cyclist with any kind of life experience would understand, that I simply cannot believe that you fail to understand it. For that reason I can only conclude that you are trolling.The fact is that if I come up behind another cyclist (say I'm just 1 or 2 km/h faster) and the gradient turns up
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:41 pm
There is a lot of space between "completely innocent" and "assaulted". Has she ever been assaulted while riding? Probably not. Has she ever been creepily followed while riding? Yes, she says.uart wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:15 pmShe's run as a greens candidate and operates in a political space. So lets face it, if she had ever been assaulted on her bike we would be hearing about it long and loudly. So we can pretty safely read that "sometimes" statement as 100% of the time in her experience."Male cyclists will come and ride on my tail and sometimes it's completely innocent
Two emergency exits in 2.5 km is probably not enough to make a nervous woman feel safer. If she's cycling at 15 km/h, that's 1 km every 4 minutes, making it about 3 minutes between exits.
It's a pity that this needs to be considered, because the pathway sounds like an excellent idea.
BTW, slightly off topic, but have they started building it yet? When I googled this, I see it was in announced in 2017...
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby vbplease » Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:35 pm
Ok, so I ignored one of the reasonings for not overtaking i.e. the gradient.. does it matter? You could chose a number of other reasons to sit on someone's wheel e.g. headwind, a development of fatigue, incontinence, whatever.. its semantics relative to the topic of being sensitive to sitting on someone's wheel, in particular a female's wheel..uart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:25 pmThe fact is that if I come up behind another cyclist (say I'm just 1 or 2 km/h faster) and the gradient turns up
So let me explain this to you very slowly. A cyclist on a better or faster bike may easily cruise a couple of kph faster than another rider on the flats, and yet be slower than them once the gradient turns up. This is just so basic, something that any cyclist with any kind of life experience would understand, that I simply cannot believe that you fail to understand it. For that reason I can only conclude that you are trolling.
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Re: Bikes in the Media
Postby P!N20 » Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:05 pm
AdelaidePeter wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:41 pmBTW, slightly off topic, but have they started building it yet? When I googled this, I see it was in announced in 2017...
It's a small part of a massive infrastructure project, so no, they haven't started the bicycle tunnel per se, but they have built a whole lot of associated elements.
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