3000w ebike and the law in Victoria?

[warthog1]

I think you are being a little generous in "small minority". A minority maybe. But SMALL? No. If someone mentions something annoying about a cyclist that day, I find that I am usually a lone voice in presenting an alternative view whereas those observers who hold adverse beliefs on road space, registration, breaking road laws are plentiful.

I am talking about the drivers and their behaviour toward me on the road.
I live in rural Vic.
Thousands of road Ks.
The drivers who buzz past me dangerously close at highway speeds are a small minority.
Enough to make me chose my route with care, use a radar, rear light, bright clothing etc, though yes
The minimum distance passing law does appear to have made some improvement here at least. How long it will last I don't know.
I have the OK from my wife for a gravel bike.
In the market for one.
Less traffic, more safe routes.

[RonK]

I had a (now stolen) crank drive ebike with 250 watts that really struggled to get up hills. The motor got very hot and made bad creaky noises. Maybe it wasn't designed properly for hills but there is no way it would have made it up 20% hills without me doing a lot of pedaling.

Buy a cheap substandard e-bike, particularly the type of stuff sold on the web and quite likely it will perform poorly.

Whoever stole yours probably did you a favour.

Yeah, that sounds fair. It was a Gazelle with a Bosch motor than cost $4000 from a B&M store. Guess I should pay more and go with better brands next time. Oh and BTW, the thief did not do me any favours by stealing the bicycle or all the other stuff they stole, but thanks for the thoughtful empathy anyway.

Haha - sorry, I thought you were saying you had one of the web specials. My commiserations.

It seems odd that your Gazelle did not perform up hill. There are several similar style Bosch powered bikes in a group I ride with and they climb very well.

[Mr Purple]

Me too.

Though potentially it was faulty or the OP is a particularly husky gentleman.

[tpcycle]

I'm unsure why the Gazelle didn't like mountains. I'm not heavy and I'm fit. The Gazelle didn't look like it was designed for anything other than shopping on flat roads and I actually bought it for someone else - but I digress. Certainly on very steep hills it struggled, but then again so I do. It was only on roads >20% gradient that it really had trouble. It was the ladies version in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY6xykzt1s0

[AUbicycles]

Just want to chip-in regarding torque. Not only are torque and power both relevant, but also the ability to 'trigger' the torque sensors (through cadence) as an ebike is pedal assistance and relies on the rotational speed of the crank to trigger the torque sensors. When pedalling slows on an incline, this reduces the motor assistance. When pedalling is generally hindered, then it is difficult to resolve this without putting 'more' into the system.


Regarding this situation - I think it is difficult and there is no straight-forward provisions to accommodate for these circumstances. An avenue could be to look into vehicle exceptions. While I know nothing about this, the questions is whether provisions would at all be available and can be made. In this case the max speed may need to capped but could an exception be granted for the high powered motor.


Otherwise I would like to note that I feel that all members mean well even though there are different ways to express ones self.

[RonK]

Just want to chip-in regarding torque. Not only are torque and power both relevant, but also the ability to 'trigger' the torque sensors (through cadence) as an ebike is pedal assistance and relies on the rotational speed of the crank to trigger the torque sensors. When pedalling slows on an incline, this reduces the motor assistance. When pedalling is generally hindered, then it is difficult to resolve this without putting 'more' into the system.

That's not how my Shimano works. Yes, in eco and boost mode it delivers either minimum or maximum assistance.
In normal mode it senses the amount of torque I put into the pedals and adjusts the level of assistance accordingly, unrelated to cadence. The end result is that my cadence and effort is almost constant, as long as I select an appropriate gear.
One observation is that many e-bike riders seem to think there is no need to change gear - you see them pedalling at ridiculously low cadences. Even an e-bike has its limits and won't climb well in high gear.

[10speedsemiracer]

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<snips>
One observation is that many e-bike riders seem to think there is no need to change gear - you see them pedalling at ridiculously low cadences. Even an e-bike has its limits and won't climb well in high gear.

This +1.

[human909]

A true torque sensor is unaffected by cadence. In fact to build a "torque sensor" that is affected by cadence would be more effort than to build one that isn't. Suggestions that cadence affects the torque sensor are either incorrect or referring to a bike model that uses cadence for its pedal assist, I have not heard of these but it is conceivable that they exist.

Regarding e bikes and hills. I would concur with the above. Either the ebike doesn't have sufficient gears or the rider isn't using them. While I don't own an ebike I have family that do and they seem to cruise up steep Tasmanian hills.

[uart]

One observation is that many e-bike riders seem to think there is no need to change gear - you see them pedalling at ridiculously low cadences. Even an e-bike has its limits and won't climb well in high gear.

Yep, you can spot most ebike riders coming from a good distance away just by noting their unusually low cadence in relation to their speed. Not all of course, but quite a lot of them. I recently built a kit ebike for the wife to help her keep up on hills, and I really had to impress on her to still use the gears properly (which she's now doing really well). It's funny how you don't look nearly as much like an ebike rider if you just use the gears properly.

Regarding the preference of many ebikers for ultra low cadence, I recently borrowed my brothers ebike (torque sensor assist only) and now I know why. Given that your pedaling torque necessarily decreases with increasing cadence (for any given power), it turned out that the level of assist dropped quite significantly as I upped the cadence (probably due to a bit of a "dead band" in the sensor). That was fine for me because I wanted to put in some effort, but if you wanted an easy ride then you definitely had to select a higher gear and drop the cadence.

[uart]

A true torque sensor is unaffected by cadence. In fact to build a "torque sensor" that is affected by cadence would be more effort than to build one that isn't. Suggestions that cadence affects the torque sensor are either incorrect or referring to a bike model that uses cadence for its pedal assist, I have not heard of these but it is conceivable that they exist

Yes, the mid-drive units usually contain a cadence sensor of some description so that they can cut the assist when you're stopped. It might even just be a safety thing to back up the torque sensor should it fail, so it will still stop assist when you stop pedaling. Of course it need not be a proper "linear" sensor to achieve this, but it can be. You can now get mid-drive kits that allow cadence mode or torque mode, or even a combination of the two. This is what I was recommending to the op, along with some good low gearing up back.

It sounds like the op originally just had an ebike that wasn't suitable for his needs. I think that it's possible that a legal ebike could be sourced to suit his needs, but it may require someone who's right up on what's available (in terms of assist modes and gearing) to help him select or build it.

[warthog1]

Moved.

[tpcycle]

Unsure why my experience of 250W ebikes is different from others. It had a Nexus 7 speed hub and of course I was in first gear going up 20% hills. Maybe 20% hills are flatter in some parts of Australia? In Adelaide there are only a handful of roads greater than 20% and my house was at the top of one of them.

[RonK]

Yes, the mid-drive units usually contain a cadence sensor of some description so that they can cut the assist when you're stopped.

Nope, that's not how they work. All the mid-drive units I've looked at use a wheel sensor to regulate assistance.
This is what makes them so easy to "tune". The tuning device simply clips to the sensor wire and halves the speed signal. It's easy to tell if an e-bike has a tuning device attached because the speedo will show only half the true speed.

[uart]

Nope, that's not how they work. All the mid-drive units I've looked at use a wheel sensor to regulate assistance.

The wheel sensor is used to sense speed, but some mid drive units also can sense cadence

The ones that don't sense torque obviously must sense cadence, otherwise they would continue to assist while ever the bike was moving, even if you stopped pedaling.

The one that I looked at (TongSheng TSDZ2) can sense both torque and cadence, but in normal operation I think that it only uses torque. It definitely uses cadence as a safety measure though, because it wont apply any assist if the cadence sensor is broken (a friend of mine had one with a faulty cadence sensor and it wouldn't assist despite the torque sensor testing ok and the motor still working perfectly in walk assist mode).

[tpcycle]

Bosch mid-drives use cadence, speed and torque sensors. I looked at their site and the first generation Active Line is designed for flat city riding. That explains why it had trouble on the steeps. Seems like I should try a Performance Line to ride up steeps.

[AUbicycles]

I have opened up a new discussion and am thankful for the comments on this. I admit that I overlook gear changes (my last test ebike was a single speed).

The relevance of cadence is 'how many times per pedal revolution is torque measured?' and how is motor assistance being calculated. The summary - there are different approaches.

[trailgumby]

Thank you for your reply guys I'm honestly overwhelmed by the amount of things you have told me.

Something to bear in mind while riding your ebike.

Recently a rider on a triathlon bike ran a red light and hit a pedestrian. The pedestrian, like you, suffered an acquired brain injury. The rider was insured under their Triathlon Australia membership. Despite the insurer* defending, the damages award was THREE MILLION DOLLARS.

This means that if you hit anyone with your unregistered and uninsured motorbike (as find_bruce has explained it is, in forensic detail) , there is a high likelihood that you will lose *everything* as the court awards damages against you.

*As an aside, for other readers, as a result of this case, public liability underwriters are now excluding cover for bike riders where the event giving rise to liability involves any laws being broken. For those associations where this restriction on cover is not yet in play, it will be in play next time your association renews its cover. So make sure you have your bells, lights and reflectors fitted.

Infuriatingly, it means protections available to motor vehicle drivers and their victims are now no longer available for bicycle riders.

[warthog1]

^^

[zebee]

Something to bear in mind while riding your ebike.

Recently a rider on a triathlon bike ran a red light and hit a pedestrian. The pedestrian, like you, suffered an acquired brain injury. The rider was insured under their Triathlon Australia membership. Despite the insurer* defending, the damages award was THREE MILLION DOLLARS.

This means that if you hit anyone with your unregistered and uninsured motorbike (as find_bruce has explained it is, in forensic detail) , there is a high likelihood that you will lose *everything* as the court awards damages against you.

I doubt you can insure against this risk.

Eg Velosure have this: any claim arising from an accident where you were using the bicycle illegally or in the performance of an
illegal action or in contravention of relevant state traffic and road usage laws. and Wiggle have the same.

Vinsurance (who do BicycleNSW insurance) say in their brochure: Members are not covered by this insurance policy if convicted of
breaching a road rule. which isn't quite the same thing. The actual policy wording available after looking about seems to be a mishmash of different insurance products and before getting that insurance I'd ask for a proper PDS. I doubt they'd cover it though. (Convicted just means the opposition will demand you are done for it...)

And as I've said upthread: If you are not at fault but are injured then given the case law it is almost certain that your payout will be reduced because of the bike's illegality. Reduced more if the driver's lawyers can find any way to say that your speed was wrong for the conditions never mind if it was over 25kmh on assist. They will hammer hard on the uninsured unregistered motorbike bit so you will be absolutely out of luck unless you were hit from behind by a drunk driver while you were waiting at the lights.

[trailgumby]

Vinsurance (who do BicycleNSW insurance) say in their brochure: Members are not covered by this insurance policy if convicted of
breaching a road rule. which isn't quite the same thing. The actual policy wording available after looking about seems to be a mishmash of different insurance products and before getting that insurance I'd ask for a proper PDS. I doubt they'd cover it though. (Convicted just means the opposition will demand you are done for it...)

Yes, that changed at the last renewal. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the other cycling organisations. The problem is the small size of the premium pool in Australia. For CTP it is much bigger, so they can afford to cover it, and indeed they are required to do so by government.

I gave Velosure the flick 15 months ago, but not for this reason.

[MichaelB]

Aaaaaaaand the OP hasn’t returned ….

[g-boaf]

Aaaaaaaand the OP hasn’t returned ….

That shouldn't stop the threading becoming a 15 page epic, surely?

[Ebikingmelb]

This will be the last time I post on this...

why I made the jump was because a 1000w motor was available and a 3000w motor was only $150 extra...

Why did I think it was logical well I didn't think about it there was a range of motors so my budget abled me to buy a 3000w motor I would have purchased a 8000w if my budget was higher at the time.

I'm riding this bike with severe disabilities...and i'll only live once and will never get to experience driving a car or a motorcycle and i had to sell my xb falcon that I was only a few months off driving because of some bloody idiot that drove into me and I never got to drive it..

Insurance wise my lawyers told me TAC will still cover he's bills regardless if he is in the wrong so I guess if on the slim chance I have an accident at 25kmh I'll still be covered...

when I was in rehab there was a 16 year old girl there who got burnt train surfing TAC also covered her...

Tac cover any road accident regardless of who's fault it is....prison and payouts are another thing...
My payout was substantial.

I doubt I'll be going to prison for a slim chance accident.

I'm sorry you got your bike stolen you should have been more carefull...you spent 4 grand on your bike well that's your problem and now it's gone my bike was not a piece of rubbish and I gave it away...and now have a bike that would wipe the floor with your so called brilliant old Bosch or new one.

Collin your whole life could be scrutinized considering how arrogant you are and the way you have probably made the choices that turned you into yourself and I doubt I'm the only one that shares an opinion that your just an arrogant person.

As I do ride on the road well let me take away your ability to walk and put you in my shoes and see how you feel about life then maybe your opinion would change...

As for doing 85kmh on Springvale Rd past my old rehab (Victorian rehabilitation centre) I chose that carefully as they said there I would be stuck in a wheelchair forever I did it to prove to myself I could do more and was indeed emotional as I flew past.

As for anyone else that has got a problem with my bike well read the comments on this post some of the posts were fair and some at least understanding people agree with my bike with my situation.

Am I stupid??...maybe I am but guess what care factor on your negative opinions is zero.

In the next decade I will have to give up my ebike because of my degenerating body so I'm going to give everything I have to my life and my ebike.

I'm sorry to come across selfish and nieve in this post but what if you were standing at the crossing waiting for the little green man to show so you can just cross the road and then got hit by a drunk driver in a Mitsubishi...

I nearly died....

Also have you taken into consideration the power It uses up trying to ride a 350w bike with a 36v 15 or 20ah battery up in the Dandenong ranges? With PAS with legs that hardly work???
I love to ride and that's all I could do on that bike which was nothing but turning around and going home which made me feel not very good about myself.

If your against this post well some of the comments are agreeing with me in some kind of way...

Your opinion is not the only one if you disagree.

I'm shocked by the arrogance of 5 percent of these comments and it's not going to make me downgrade my bike I thought we were all Aussies fair and true and blue but some of you may as well be French hence your arrogance...

I'm sure this last post of mine will once again make some of you rebut..

So go ahead I won't be replying my life will be cut short because of my injuries and I would give anything to be just like one of you and to be able to ride a 250w bike with no problem.

My bike is a folding Tebco it's got a 3000w motor with 2 72v 40AH battery's no PAS and it has a throttle I weigh 98kg and am 6ft4 and am very happy with my bike at the moment originally it had a 200w motor it's got a 170mm dropout as it had a drum brake because it was made in the early 2000's in Cheltenham from the electric bicycle company that was the way they made the brake back then on this model bike...my friend gave this bike to me and I have a nack for building things and still would love to be an engineer but it seems highly unlikely.

Because of the dropout width I purchased a fat bike motor and built it on a standard size 20 inch rim I then welded mounting points to the rear fork of the frame which allowed me to bolt on a back v brake..

Thank all you guys that understood I really appreciate it.

I noticed most of you guys have a quote under all of your posts here's mine be it lame or not...

Knock Knock....who's there?...Collin... Collin who?
colonoscopy.

[1Rowdy1]

Well I hope your next accident takes you out and not some poor law abiding citizen.

[10speedsemiracer]

/

My bike is a folding Tebco it's got a 3000w motor with 2 72v 40AH battery's no PAS and it has a throttle

Seriously ? I'm still debating whether this a troll post. That "bike" is a recipe for disaster. 3Kw on a cheap folding bike with rim brakes ? With home-built brake mounts ?

I'm guessing it looks a little something like this, but without the disc brakes :

which is a motley assortment of Chinese ODM parts, a low-grade fork and on an alloy frame. lol.

The original weight was around the 20kg mark...with 200w. Yours, with the 2 monster batteries, will be over 30kg. Plus you at 98kg makes this a barely-controlled blunt object.

I'm sorry to come across selfish and nieve (sic) in this post

Your motivation in posting seems to be that you are seeking validation, or maybe just empathy.

How about this?

My mate lives near you, maybe even around the corner. He rides.
He has three brilliant kids. They ride.
He has a wife. She rides.

Now given that this family all ride in the same area as you, chances are high that your paths will cross one day, and probably already have.

Let's just say the worst happens, and you clean them up. Let's say one of them doesn't make it. Was it worth it?

Speed in and of itself isn't necessarily dangerous, provided the equipment is up to the job and the environment is suitable. Speed differential however is a much bigger problem.
So far we know that the equipment is not suitable (not even close), and the rider has impaired functionality and movement (no offence meant, but is a fact by your own admission).

Are you able to now see why this comes across as selfish, and how your behaviour in riding this 'thing' poses a risk to others?

You expect empathy, and yet display no capacity for same.

And I'm not even going near the racist overtones, nor the personal attack on one of our members.