Study: SUV Drivers Cause 55% Worse Injuries To Bicyclists They Hit

[Comedian]

As a gift to this forum.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... tudy-finds

The increasing popularity of ultra-heavy SUVs in England means a conventional-engined car bought in 2013 will, on average, have lower carbon emissions than one bought new today, new research has found.

The study by the climate campaign group Possible said there was a strong correlation between income and owning a large SUV, which meant there was a sound argument for “polluter pays” taxes for vehicle emissions based on size.

Data on vehicle ownership in England showed that households in the top 20% income bracket are 81% more likely to own a highly emitting car than vehicle owners in the other 80%.

The top 20% income group drive three times as many miles a year as those in the bottom income quintile.

[MichaelB]

I think it's about time that rego charges are based on vehicle weight AND the emissions.

In SA, currently, it's 4cyl or less, 5 or 6 cyl, 7 or more cyl, and then truck.

Pseudo tradies and Toorak Mum's will complain, but they can afford it ....

[baabaa]

Yes, EVs designed from scratch are going to be much better but at the moment there are a number of converted from ICE designs.

Hmm - for me... I would be quite keen on a ev which had best in the next gen battery tech with as much stuff on it as a mini moke or a 2CV - Maybe an on road version of a side by side?
Think that we in Aust will see these come out of China one day but would need a new type of vehicle classification / safety legislation

I have an old Mini and interestingly there's a fair few options for an EV conversion now.

Swindon do one with an 80kW motor and 12.4kWh battery which gives a 200km range. The kit is approximately half the weight (70kg) of my heavily worked 1275 and transmission unit. Better power and the range is not actually that much worse to be honest - though my engine has a very big side draft weber and is an especially stupid example.

Works out to about $26k AUD now, last time I checked it was $40k+. Getting dangerously close to being cheaper than a 1275 with that power.

Yes hang on to that thought as I do like that concept - had a 1990 Peugeot 205 gti bought new but we sold it when it became a bit cosy with two kiddies and two dogs - wish I kept it as was a fine fun all rounder and would have been a great car to convert. Now have a 2012 skoda octavia 1.4 light turbo manual which at 110,000 k has been 100% *trouble free. As these types of medium sized wagons are now impossible to buy new, am hoping that someone will have a drop in e -motor kit about soonish.....

*( easy to do around the mid 5 l/ 100km, on second set of tyres and just changed the front brake pads and rotors but could have gone another 10 k - could be the ligh tar weight (?) plus just dropped in a new water pump as my on-the-tools bloke understands that is a nice bit of skoda risk management. He thinks it would be madness to sell and has become a big skoda fan)

[Comedian]

I think it's about time that rego charges are based on vehicle weight AND the emissions.

In SA, currently, it's 4cyl or less, 5 or 6 cyl, 7 or more cyl, and then truck.

Pseudo tradies and Toorak Mum's will complain, but they can afford it ....

This is the problem.. and why nothing gets done.

It's hard to make changes for the better as someone will always complain.

[elantra]

It’s like deja vu.
Just goes to show that peoples are good at making the same errors from the past and we are no more enlightened than our predecessors.

I own a 1979 Valiant. It basically killed Chrysler Australia because it was too big (5m), too thirsty (15l/100km), and too slow (0-100 in 11.7 seconds).

Compare these figures to the top selling dual cabs today. They're extremely similar.

Also I'll just leave this here.

This morning I saw a recent model B-double truck/trailer combination vehicle.
Cruising at a speed appropriate to the conditions.
No surprises, these vehicles are the bread and butter of the interstate transport industry these days in Australia

It belonged to one of the large transport companies, although I’m not sure if the truck itself would be company-owned or owner-operator contracted.

A bit noteworthy was the graphics on the Curtainsider trailer - in huge letters it stated “be aware of truck blindspots” or almost that.

You get the message.
Now I’m not suggesting that anyone should “ignore” the possibility of a truck blindspot, but it should not be such an open and closed fact of life anymore.
My 8 years old Holden came standard with a reversing camera. Works well.

And you see plenty of cars these days with interesting little lights on their side mirror housings which I presume are sensors that alert the operator to vehicles alongside.

So why don’t heavy vehicles routinely have technologies like this ???
I spose some do - but perhaps not enough of them.
These technologies presumably these days are not that expensive if just about every new car has them.
Yes it would cost a few $$$ to put them on trucks but, as a proportion of the cost of a B double truck it would probably be very little.
The Vehicle that I saw this morning was a Volvo FH13 with 2 Curtainsider type trailers.
Approx cost of the Volvo (new) is about 300 thousand dollars, and approx cost of the Trailer (combo) is a bit over 200 thousand dollars.
In other words the vehicle combination is worth more than half a million dollars.

So why don’t vehicles such as this have a few of these cameras ?
I’m not sure the full answer but I suspect that part of the answer is that it would be a bit much to expect one driver to process so much information.
If that is the case then it’s a good case for rebuffing the current industry trend which is to allow the use even longer vehicles on many roads which once upon a time were restricted to one trailer only.

[Mr Purple]

You get the message.
Now I’m not suggesting that anyone should “ignore” the possibility of a truck blindspot, but it should not be such an open and closed fact of life anymore.
My 8 years old Holden came standard with a reversing camera. Works well.

And you see plenty of cars these days with interesting little lights on their side mirror housings which I presume are sensors that alert the operator to vehicles alongside.

So why don’t heavy vehicles routinely have technologies like this ???

They should. The recent death outside RBWH was 100% because the truck was not equipped with a blind spot monitoring system. The driver literally drove over a cyclist in front of him.

It's frankly absolutely appalling and a sad indictment on our lawmakers that they aren't mandated. You're exactly right - in terms of overall cost of the truck it would be next to nothing.

Multiple cyclists and pedestrians die from this annually.

[foo on patrol]

It’s like deja vu.
Just goes to show that peoples are good at making the same errors from the past and we are no more enlightened than our predecessors.

I own a 1979 Valiant. It basically killed Chrysler Australia because it was too big (5m), too thirsty (15l/100km), and too slow (0-100 in 11.7 seconds).

Compare these figures to the top selling dual cabs today. They're extremely similar.

Also I'll just leave this here.

This morning I saw a recent model B-double truck/trailer combination vehicle.
Cruising at a speed appropriate to the conditions.
No surprises, these vehicles are the bread and butter of the interstate transport industry these days in Australia

It belonged to one of the large transport companies, although I’m not sure if the truck itself would be company-owned or owner-operator contracted.

A bit noteworthy was the graphics on the Curtainsider trailer - in huge letters it stated “be aware of truck blindspots” or almost that.

You get the message.
Now I’m not suggesting that anyone should “ignore” the possibility of a truck blindspot, but it should not be such an open and closed fact of life anymore.
My 8 years old Holden came standard with a reversing camera. Works well.

And you see plenty of cars these days with interesting little lights on their side mirror housings which I presume are sensors that alert the operator to vehicles alongside.

So why don’t heavy vehicles routinely have technologies like this ???
I spose some do - but perhaps not enough of them.
These technologies presumably these days are not that expensive if just about every new car has them.
Yes it would cost a few $$$ to put them on trucks but, as a proportion of the cost of a B double truck it would probably be very little.
The Vehicle that I saw this morning was a Volvo FH13 with 2 Curtainsider type trailers.
Approx cost of the Volvo (new) is about 300 thousand dollars, and approx cost of the Trailer (combo) is a bit over 200 thousand dollars.
In other words the vehicle combination is worth more than half a million dollars.

So why don’t vehicles such as this have a few of these cameras ?
I’m not sure the full answer but I suspect that part of the answer is that it would be a bit much to expect one driver to process so much information.
If that is the case then it’s a good case for rebuffing the current industry trend which is to allow the use even longer vehicles on many roads which once upon a time were restricted to one trailer only.

Have you ever been in or driven a B-double too have the slightest inkling of what you're up against with ignorant car drivers around you?
No amount of cameras will help you when you have fools trying too pass you at the end of overtaking lanes, brows of hills, blind bends/corners and not enough room for an over take!
How about people friggin drive with some commonsense and consideration for those around you, oh wait, that would be asking to much! Stop trying to impose stupid ideas that makes drivers complacent instead of being alert to what is going on around them.

And just on another note, the B-doubles and A-doubles will follow the same turning radius as a single trailer and reduce the cost of freight for the goods being delivered and reduces the number of vehicles on the roads, so are you prepared too pay for the correct cost of fright too be added to the cost of goods?

And people wonder why, I hate this industry and can't wait till I get out of it at the end of the year!

How about we speed limit all cars motor bikes and courier vans to 100kmh like we are, oh wait, that would create so much of an outcry, wouldn't it!

Foo

[elantra]

^^^ Yeah Foo I fully sympathise with anyone who has to do this as their job , but I am not convinced that allowing greater numbers of B-triples and Road trains on east coast arterial roads is going to make any significant difference on the cost of anything to the consumer.

But of course it will help the financial viability of some transport companies which struggle to retain enough drivers - perhaps because they don’t get paid enough to compensate them for the work conditions which you describe.

Adding extra trailers to a heavy vehicle won’t make your job any easier, in fact it will only make things worse for the driver, as the vehicle will be a bit slower and there will be more things to go wrong of a technical nature, such as tyres, couplings etc.

I have no fundamental objection to very long vehicles- on appropriate roads !

Theoretically, main motorways such as those north, south, east and west out of Brisbane industrial estates *should* be appropriate roads for B Doubles and even B triples / Road trains.

BUT we probably agree - that these motorways are frustratingly prone to becoming parking lots during daylight hours !!!
This results in all sorts of frustration for car drivers and truck drivers alike.
Such as merging on or off, it’s sort of comical to try and merge on if the lane is occupied by a Road train crawling along in heavy traffic. Merging involves finding a gap, which is impossible if the vehicle is a continuous linkage of trailers.
Yes the infrastructure is inadequate - but it’s only inadequate because the Qld government can’t manage their motorways for JS. And there just isn’t the spare land to make lots more motorways.
And even if there was space, it would take them so long to build another motorway that the population increase would be faster than the rate at which it can be built.

I did see a fascinating post on a road transport fbook site inviting truck drivers to offer suggestions about how the industry could be improved. A lot of the answers were quite interesting and informative, and most centered around better pay, better treatment from transport companies and load despatchers, and greater flexibility with log book hours etc.

Obviously there were a just few suggestions that don’t bear repeating, but those were outliers.
Cheers and safe driving.

[foo on patrol]

^^^ Yeah Foo I fully sympathise with anyone who has to do this as their job , but I am not convinced that allowing greater numbers of B-triples and Road trains on east coast arterial roads is going to make any significant difference on the cost of anything to the consumer.

But of course it will help the financial viability of some transport companies which struggle to retain enough drivers - perhaps because they don’t get paid enough to compensate them for the work conditions which you describe.

Adding extra trailers to a heavy vehicle won’t make your job any easier, in fact it will only make things worse for the driver, as the vehicle will be a bit slower and there will be more things to go wrong of a technical nature, such as tyres, couplings etc.

I have no fundamental objection to very long vehicles- on appropriate roads !

Theoretically, main motorways such as those north, south, east and west out of Brisbane industrial estates *should* be appropriate roads for B Doubles and even B triples / Road trains.

BUT we probably agree - that these motorways are frustratingly prone to becoming parking lots during daylight hours !!!
This results in all sorts of frustration for car drivers and truck drivers alike.
Such as merging on or off, it’s sort of comical to try and merge on if the lane is occupied by a Road train crawling along in heavy traffic. Merging involves finding a gap, which is impossible if the vehicle is a continuous linkage of trailers.
Yes the infrastructure is inadequate - but it’s only inadequate because the Qld government can’t manage their motorways for JS. And there just isn’t the spare land to make lots more motorways.
And even if there was space, it would take them so long to build another motorway that the population increase would be faster than the rate at which it can be built.

I did see a fascinating post on a road transport fbook site inviting truck drivers to offer suggestions about how the industry could be improved. A lot of the answers were quite interesting and informative, and most centered around better pay, better treatment from transport companies and load despatchers, and greater flexibility with log book hours etc.

Obviously there were a just few suggestions that don’t bear repeating, but those were outliers.
Cheers and safe driving.

They have had these things before and I went to a big one out at Goondiwindi but nothing really changes because the lard arse seat warmers of Gubberment departments aren't interested in listening to the real problems and they don't have hands on experience in the industry, so it gets put into the to hard basket. Truck drivers are an easy revenue for them with restrictions that no other industry has placed on it.

Logbooks make many drivers drive when they are tied or fatigued and therein lies the problem because they blanket rule the industry with ideas from so called experts that have no idea other than looking at stuff that looks good on paper and theory but in actual practice, is not viable.

They are always looking and crying about the road toll, yet they have no idea of what really goes on. Spend a day in a truck and watch the sheer stupidity of the general public on the roads and it would make you shake your head in absolute bewilderment of the stupidity. Stop with the unmarked police cars or hiding behind things for the speed cameras and have an actual presence on the roads. Put the UHF radios back into the patrol cars so that they can be contacted by truck drivers. I've had a few occasions where the local police have heard myself and others talking about speeding cars and motor bikes and the dangerous passing that has occurred and have called us up and asked for details and then pulled over said persons and thanked us.

All of these point add up to the problem that we are faced with on the roads and we as in cyclists will always bare the brunt of abuse and injuries from clowns on the roads. I listen to others in trucks and cars that whinge about cyclists but my reply is always the same......I'm a cyclist and I drive trucks and a 4by and cyclists are the least of my problems on the roads and yes, there are some fools that make things hard for the rest of us but that percentage is nowhere near as bad as ignorant impatient self entitled car drivers that have no idea about the size of the vehicle that they are driving or the rules that we all have applied to us.

Foo

[Comedian]

Long haul stuff aside - it's clear that trucks that are used on inner city roads should meet visibility guidelines. If they can't meet them, then they shouldn't be allowed to be operated in those areas. My friend Carolyn was killed riding to work - only a couple of K's from the CBD. This was an official truck company route which crossed the North Brisbane Bikeway and ran the 100m to the hospital Cycle Centre. If they won't give us an off road cycle facility then they should at least prohibit "death trucks"

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nation ... 5eb7b.html

[DavidS]

I think we all understand the issues around trucks, and how badly treated the drivers are. There are good reasons why they should have things like cameras where practical, it does help. We also know the issues with drivers, I used to drive trams - imagine a truck without steering - I well know just how stupid drivers can be.

But there do have to be limits on large vehicles in urban areas, along with driver aids where they can help.

DS

[fat and old]

Long haul stuff aside - it's clear that trucks that are used on inner city roads should meet visibility guidelines. If they can't meet them, then they shouldn't be allowed to be operated in those areas.

Agree absolutely. It's not hard to do it. There's a growing cohort of "talking" construction related trucks in Melbourne...not sure if it's gone interstate? Unfortunately, as per usual, it's the new stuff operated by large companies. The smaller groups and subbies won't spend a cent on any of this unless they're forced to. In spite of the large number of requirements we have on infra jobs in Melbourne VRU safety doesn't rate.

My belated condolences re your friend. Hopefully it wasn't in vain and something was implemented.

[baabaa]

A good enough place to post this....
Worth a listen and gets even better when it moves onto the topic of roads and highways
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1- ... erhighways

Supertalls and superhighways

Stacking up the social and ecological impacts of our tallest buildings and expansive road networks, and how roadway innovation, alongside building vertical cities, can combat urban sprawl and protect wildlife.

Then...

[elantra]

^^ Great little vid, thanks for posting. Thumbs up !

[g-boaf]

Not very fair showing a 300SL, that was basically a racing car with number plates. It's never going to be efficient. And following the classic cars on their 2000km journey with special tanker is definitely not good.

The greenest car is the one you don't buy or build at all if not needed.


But this is all a moot point, every household must have 3-4 premium badged SUVs, preferably with them on display to one-up the neighbours and show you've "made it".

[jasonc]

But this is all a moot point, every household must have 3-4 premium badged SUVs, preferably with them on display to one-up the neighbours and show you've "made it".

Don't forget to fill your garage with crap and park your cars on the street and in front of your house. You can then complain about the side mirror being knocked off and cars in drive ways and parked on the road nightly being targeted by thieves and joy riders

[elantra]

But this is all a moot point, every household must have 3-4 premium badged SUVs, preferably with them on display to one-up the neighbours and show you've "made it".

Don't forget to fill your garage with crap and park your cars on the street and in front of your house. You can then complain about the side mirror being knocked off and cars in drive ways and parked on the road nightly being targeted by thieves and joy riders

So true in this day and age.

Or the car/cars is out on the road because the garage is full of - other cars !

The only good thing (that I can think of) about the car/cars not being in the garage, is that (apparently) these days, modern cars with congested engine bays in residential garages are very popular with domestic rats.
Sometimes the rats chew things that are very expensive to repair, and some late model cars in parts of Australia have been written-off due to engine bay damage from fangy rats.
Yikes.

[g-boaf]

But this is all a moot point, every household must have 3-4 premium badged SUVs, preferably with them on display to one-up the neighbours and show you've "made it".

Don't forget to fill your garage with crap and park your cars on the street and in front of your house. You can then complain about the side mirror being knocked off and cars in drive ways and parked on the road nightly being targeted by thieves and joy riders

Gosh yes! Agreed! The garages are also often so narrow these SUV battleships won’t fit inside them.

The cars parked outside are great targets for those drive-by shooter types.

[warthog1]

]

Gosh yes! Agreed! The garages are also often so narrow these SUV battleships won’t fit inside them.

The cars parked outside are great targets for those drive-by shooter types.

A commodore appears to be wider than a hilux.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/holden/com ... sions/2020
https://www.carsguide.com.au/toyota/hil ... sions/2021
So a bogan chariot is actually wider than some battleships.

Got to admit our garage is full of chit too.
5 bikes hanging on the wall and the second fridge and a freezer, along with bike tools and spare wheels.
The Tucson battleship and Swift barbie car both fit though. The really big battleship is down in the shed in the backyard that is overflowing with tools and camping gear etc etc

[Nobody]

The only good thing (that I can think of) about the car/cars not being in the garage, is that (apparently) these days, modern cars with congested engine bays in residential garages are very popular with domestic rats.
Sometimes the rats chew things that are very expensive to repair, and some late model cars in parts of Australia have been written-off due to engine bay damage from fangy rats.
Yikes.

This happened to my father-in-law who lives in Kuranda near Cairns. Didn't write the car off though.

The best way to avoid this problem is to not encourage the rats to nest in one's house in the first place. That means don't feed them - hard to avoid if you have pets - and don't leave the house smelling like a restaurant overnight. We used to have rats when we first moved in. But we now make sure the kitchen is clean and the rubbish and recycling is out of the house at night. I also don't have food scraps composting in the yard. I instead walk the scaps into the bush and dispose of them there, away from everyone's houses. However there is only so much one can do to discourage them. One of our next door neighbours has dogs. So they are likely attracting the rats, even if the dogs manage to kill one or two.

[g-boaf]

]

Gosh yes! Agreed! The garages are also often so narrow these SUV battleships won’t fit inside them.

The cars parked outside are great targets for those drive-by shooter types.

A commodore appears to be wider than a hilux.
https://www.carsguide.com.au/holden/com ... sions/2020
https://www.carsguide.com.au/toyota/hil ... sions/2021
So a bogan chariot is actually wider than some battleships.

Got to admit our garage is full of chit too.
5 bikes hanging on the wall and the second fridge and a freezer, along with bike tools and spare wheels.
The Tucson battleship and Swift barbie car both fit though. The really big battleship is down in the shed in the backyard that is overflowing with tools and camping gear etc etc

I’m thinking of X7, GLS, Audi Q7, Range Rovers and the other favourites of my wealthy (mortgaged to heck) area…

Fair difference in weight, size and height.

[warthog1]

I’m thinking of X7, GLS, Audi Q7, Range Rovers and the other favourites of my wealthy (mortgaged to heck) area…

Fair difference in weight, size and height.

Fair enough, weight and height are quite a bit more. Pointless as a city commuter.
Mortgage size is a huge problem in Australia that I don't see ever resolving.
Elections are decided by a small margins.
Realistically it is only one side of politics that has shown any interest in addressing it but even that is gone now.
So many people have negatively geared "investment" properties now, that if there is any hint of addressing it they are voting for the other side. Political suicide it appears.
I wonder how my kids are going to ever get into the market.
The young bloke is looking for a place to rent in inner Melb with 2 other student friends whilst he finishes uni. ~800-900 a week in rent for a 3 bedroom place.

[g-boaf]

Once you get past the trophy home and car facade, these folk are really under pressure. Another mortgage rise and they’ll really be in strife.

I might not have the fancy home like them, but glad to not have their mortgage stress.

[Mr Purple]

Don't forget to fill your garage with crap and park your cars on the street and in front of your house. You can then complain about the side mirror being knocked off and cars in drive ways and parked on the road nightly being targeted by thieves and joy riders

This is my pet hate and a big one in our (very affluent) street.

Garages full of junk, requiring the two oversized SUVs (often matching) and massive caravan to be parked in the street.

I managed to have a look inside one of the garages down the road while walking past a few months back. Literally could have fit eight cars in it, and yet there was so much junk they still parked their two cars in the street.

I'm not the best example, but at least my 15m x 6m garage has five cars in it, parts for keeping the three classics running, and six bicycles.

[find_bruce]

I'm not the best example, but at least my 15m x 6m garage has five cars in it, parts for keeping the three classics running, and six bicycles.

Is it all on one level ? I had to stack my sprites so I could fit 2 in a 1 car garage