NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:04 pm

Jmuzz wrote:If challenged in court it is fairly easy to have a private camera evidence thrown out, which then leaves police with no case and a court bill to pay.

They can issue the ticket and hope the accused simply pays it without contesting, which is what the EPA litter report fines do and why they don't really care about any evidence being provided with the report. They will drop the fine before court.

Do you have any authority for this opinion ? A case or a section of the Evidence Act ? Because in my experience it is a load of twaddle pushed by the ignorant.

Private video evidence is routinely admitted in criminal prosecutions & is given great weight - the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal recently noted that a private video of a robbery was not only admissible, but "was more informative than any written account"

The issue is rarely whether the video is admissible, but rather the question "what does the video actually show.?" Trailgumby has written an excellent 3 part series on Getting Police to Act on Video Evidence Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3 where he devotes a large amount of time to exactly how to analyse the video to prove the distance beyond reasonable doubt.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:09 pm

diggler wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:Permanent law may see a stepup in more serious enforcement.

Private video is always dodgy since it is quite easy to fight in court and it gets very expensive for prosecution to prove it is valid.
Though that's no excuse for police not sending a fine and then dropping it as soon as it is challenged. That at least scares people.

Real enforcement needs to be unmarked cops on bikes running a calibrated camera or more techy radar etc.

Hopefully now that trial is finished NSW will trial bikes on footpaths and crossings. I'm happy with a 10kph or so limit (with +100% measurement tolerance to account for bad/no speedo and difficulty getting a radar reading), better than current blanket ban.


I very much doubt the police have a calibrated camera.

Why would you think private video is dodgy? If you have a video of a car hitting you, that is pretty good evidence that they were within a metre.



What exactly is a "calibrated camera" and how exactly is it better than one that isn't calibrated. Let's say for instance there are two Nikon cameras, the calibrated one is a D3 and the uncalibrated one is a D5. Why would the calibrated D3 be better than the D5?

And for JMuzz, if private video evidence is clear as anything and totally irrefutable - how on earth is it easy to fight in court? Say it catches a driver assaulting a bike rider. How on earth does calibration make any difference to that.

I'm sure you are right and that no private video evidence can ever be proven in any scenario, but just thought I'd query that.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:53 pm

find_bruce wrote:
Jmuzz wrote:If challenged in court it is fairly easy to have a private camera evidence thrown out, which then leaves police with no case and a court bill to pay.

They can issue the ticket and hope the accused simply pays it without contesting, which is what the EPA litter report fines do and why they don't really care about any evidence being provided with the report. They will drop the fine before court.

Do you have any authority for this opinion ? A case or a section of the Evidence Act ? Because in my experience it is a load of twaddle pushed by the ignorant.

Private video evidence is routinely admitted in criminal prosecutions & is given great weight - the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal recently noted that a private video of a robbery was not only admissible, but "was more informative than any written account"

The issue is rarely whether the video is admissible, but rather the question "what does the video actually show.?" Trailgumby has written an excellent 3 part series on Getting Police to Act on Video Evidence Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3 where he devotes a large amount of time to exactly how to analyse the video to prove the distance beyond reasonable doubt.


My camera video was used by the police to successfully fine a motorist who overtook another car by crossing double lines.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:41 pm

biker jk wrote:My camera video was used by the police to successfully fine a motorist who overtook another car by crossing double lines.

And that seems to the crutch of enforcement, they are keen where there is a clear metric, in this case the crossing of double lines but reluctant where the metric is less obvious, such as the 1mtr law as the video does not exhibit a clear measurement
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Thoglette » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:21 pm

mikesbytes wrote: but reluctant where the metric is less obvious, such as the 1mtr law as the video does not exhibit a clear measurement
and they'd have to get off their arses and check.

As previously noted, the QLD thread reported higher success rates when video was accompanied by measurements.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:00 pm

Apparently there have been just 65 close pass fines issued from March 2016 to May 2018: Where Sydney drivers get busted for not giving cyclists space

I'm wondering how many of those Trailgumby is directly responsible for?

For future reference
A NSW Police spokeswoman said anyone who believes an offence has been committed should report it to police.

"If there are any issues with it [offence] not being followed up to refer the matter to the relevant Police Area Commander or Police District Commander," the spokesman said.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:44 am

I understand that the breakdown is 28 close pass fines for the last year, so its dropped from the previous year.

More people win Lotto than get fined for close passes so the odds are heavily in favour of those who ignore the 1mtr law
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby queequeg » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:20 am

find_bruce wrote:Apparently there have been just 65 close pass fines issued from March 2016 to May 2018: Where Sydney drivers get busted for not giving cyclists space

I'm wondering how many of those Trailgumby is directly responsible for?

For future reference
A NSW Police spokeswoman said anyone who believes an offence has been committed should report it to police.

"If there are any issues with it [offence] not being followed up to refer the matter to the relevant Police Area Commander or Police District Commander," the spokesman said.


My guess, all the of the ones in Frenchs Forest!
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Scintilla » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:42 pm

"In the first year after Minimum Passing Distance was introduced there were only 33 fines given to drivers for this offence, compared with 8,586 fines to cyclists for helmets/footpath/lights/etc (including 463 for not having a bell)... apparently it's 26,000% more important to discourage cyclists than to penalise motorists!!"

Source - interpretation based on NSW Police Infringement Penalty data.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby DaveMaywald » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:34 pm

Unsafe Passes are much more common than you'd expect: both for cyclists and across the road system. Poll results of the real-life experiences from 451 bike riders has found that:
>> Cyclists on average encounter at least one illegal vehicle pass per week
>> One-fifth of respondents are faced with ten or more Unsafe Passes every month
>> Reckless drivers in NSW have less than one in a million chance of being fined for an Unsafe Pass
>> There have been more than 100 million breaches of the Minimum Passing Distance since introduction in March 2016 (yet only 65 fines have been issued)

Please sign the Petition for Safe Passing Distance, and share it widely with your network, asking them to sign it as well:
https://tinyurl.com/proactiveMPD

There were 1,967 serious injuries to cyclists last year, and about 7 cyclists die on NSW roads each year. It only takes a single incident to alter the course of a victim’s life, as echoed by two poll respondents when asked how many Unsafe Passes they have experienced:
__“One, because four weeks ago I was hit by a car and haven't ridden since.” Matthew
__“One, they hit me now I can’t ride for 8 weeks due to broken bones” Linton

Here are some other typical responses to the survey:
__“I can’t remember the last time I went for a ride without at least one close pass.” Michael
__“If it were any worse, I wouldn't be alive to tell you how many near misses I have!” Marina
__“I get dozens of sub-1 metre passes, and at least 1-2 willful and dangerous close-shave *every day*. Multiply that out by numbers of riders to get some idea of the real extent of the offence” Peter
__“The only thing that will work is prosecution of these careless drivers. I have had two trucks pass me so close, I feared the draft would pull me under… The rider, me, is too busy trying to stay alive to get a plate number.” Rick
__“I ride every day. And every day I have at least one clown skim past with inches to spare. Most drivers are great, but there’s 1% that are trying to kill people. Fine them, take their license away, put them in jail. Do whatever it takes to get the message through before someone else dies!” Andy

To work out the number of Unsafe Passes on our roads, the key unknown has been the incidence of Unsafe Passes experienced by cyclists each month. This poll question was asked to thousands of different types of bike riders:
>> “How many close passes have you encountered during the last FOUR WEEKS? (less than 1.0 metre gap up to 60km/hour, or less than 1.5 metres clearance in a speed zone over 60 km/hour)”

The most shocking result from this poll is that one-fifth of respondents experience several Unsafe Passes per week (or more):
__“At least once a day for me.” Mark
__“At least one a day.” Darren
__“Minimum 1 a day. 7 days a week. 4 weeks is 28. I'd go 30 or 40 to round off. Mostly incompetent motorists. On average 1 a week would be categorized aggressive and 1 a month would be aggressive, deliberate and potentially lethal.” Peter
__“I don't keep track, too many to count!” Lauren
__“Not enough numbers on here” Steve
__“Too many to count in 1 week but easily 20 at under 60cm and probably 4 worth keeping on file for future reports if I come across them again on my regular commute” Anthony
__“Yep, more than 10 for me too” Domes
__“Need an option for 'more than 20'. I get at least 10 less than 1 metre (or less than 1.5 metre in a 70 kmh zone) *every* DAY!” Peter
__“You don’t have a number big enough- over 50” Bastien
__“10+ and I'm not a 'roadie' type - I use quiet streets and/or separated tracks or footpaths. Quiet streets are going the way of the dodo, almost non-existent now :( It's basically become impossible to get my kid to ride to school…. rat-runners buzzing past on all streets these days.” Troy

The attached chart shows the distribution of the 451 responses, with most riders clustered between zero and four. Comments from the 20% of riders in the “Ten plus” category suggest that they encounter about 25 Unsafe Passes every four weeks, which would give an average of 7.2 Unsafe Passes per rider across the poll. However, there may be insufficient responses from riders experiencing few Unsafe Passes (including minors) and riders with many Unsafe Passes may be more motivated in responding to this poll... So conservative assumptions have been used in the attached calculations. For example, the low case gives only 10 Unsafe Passes to the most at-risk riders (instead of 25), and shifts 12% from this category to the “None” category (extremely conservative compared to the poll result).

The biennial Cycling Participation Survey gives the percent of people who ride a bike each month, for each State and Territory. For the medium case, the NSW calculation is straight-forward:
>> 7.92 million people x 17.8% cycling per month x 4.35 Unsafe Passes per month (convert from four weeks to one month) = 6.13 million Unsafe Passes per month

With 65 fines issued from March 2016 to May 2018, there was only 1 fine for every 2.5 million Unsafe Passes. And the chance of being caught by Police was a tiny 0.00004% (so small that you have to reveal five decimal places to even see it!!). Reckless drivers have 99.99996% chance of not being caught…

The survey reveals many of the key factors that influence Unsafe Passes:
__“Depends what time & location you ride. Like most people I do the hard work for drivers by getting up at 5am & riding on roads where I minimise interaction with drivers. If I actually rode where & when I wanted, I'd get 10 close passes in the first 5 minutes.” Gareth
__“Drivers are aggressive during peak hour…” Declan
__“I cycle Sydney peak hour. I get at least 5 every day.” Bernard
__“Ride 2km on a busy street at peak hour, you will already reach 10 close passes easily... That's just the sad reality but it shouldn't stop us riding!” Rudy
__“The time of day, the day, the route, all make a difference. Outside fast food outlets is dangerous at breakfast time. Passing industrial areas is bad for the late for work brigade and the absolute worst place and time is school drop off and school pick-up time” Peter
__“I find some quiet streets worse. Rat runners and mums in 4x4 (worst).” Aaron
__“I ride every day, but my route is mostly back streets or very wide shoulders etc, so I don't get close passed very often.” Greg
__“Traffic density is also a variable. City riders would have more cars pass than regional / rural riders. I've had rides where I've been passed by less than one vehicle per hour. Hard to get close passes when there is no other traffic.” Mel
__“Ride in a group, two abreast; it’s a general rarity. Ride solo, it’s almost a forgone conclusion...” Steven

What percentage of incidents reported to Police result in a fine? Well you have to make a second assumption to work that out... If victims take between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 20,000 incidents to Police (only the most life-threatening offences, with the highest quality evidence), then less than 1% of these incidents has resulted in a fine… If more incidents have been taken to Police, then the probability of getting a fine vanishes towards zero (the number of fines doesn’t change, if one goes up then the other has to go down)… NSW Police have refused a Freedom of Information application to disclose the number of incidents reported to them, and they likely don’t have the systems in place to collect this important Road Safety metric.

NSW Police have said that anyone who believes an offence has been committed should report it to them: "If there are any issues with it not being followed up to refer the matter to the relevant Police Area Commander or Police District Commander"

In the UK road.cc has a series of videos and photos on their website called Near Miss of the Day (NMotD), which is up to number 182. This has built awareness of the dangers that vehicles and their drivers pose to cyclists, and is part of a nation-wide effort to change road behaviour:
https://road.cc/show/tags/near-miss-day/143145

Reducing harm on our roads requires a concerted effort to improve awareness of Safe Passing Distance (and the road rule exemptions), as well as Proactive Enforcement of this crucial Road Safety rule:
__“I think many drivers still don't know the 1.5/1m rule and that they can cross a solid white line when safe. They think they have to push past” David
__“Another close pass tonight. It seems nearly every ride lately... I had to remove the sound as it was so expletive ridden it would be unwatchable to most. I was having a lovely commute home until this.” Anthony
__“I am riding in the French Pyrenees. I’m sure the close shaves will resume when I return to Sydney! The drivers here are mostly extremely courteous and cautious. On the local winding roads they will wait for several bends until it is clear to pass. None of the Sydney aggro.” Michael
__“Fundamental to Sydney Aggro lies poor education, minimal consequences for people doing wrong and wildly excessive car dependency” Martin

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:08 pm

Please note: I asked David to post this here

Here is the associated image that goes with that post
Image
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby antigee » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:16 pm

road.cc has also extensively reported on the action being taken by the UK West Midlands police....this has been taken up by other UK forces...the UK doesn't have a minimum pass law as such - but prosecutions are being successfully made using other legislation (do I recall correctly that one of the arguments for not having a minimum pass law in Vic' was that drivers could be prosecuted under existing legislation?)

West Midlands Police....Serious cycle smashes down by a fifth in ‘Close Pass’ first year

https://west-midlands.police.uk/news/39 ... first-year

and this news article shows some serious positive can do, will do attitude using a cyclists recording of an incident to force through a successful prosecution of a driver

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/m ... r-14349922

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:14 am

A followup on an older question (on this page) “what is a calibrated camera?”

Related to the work Trailgumby did, the issue with camera is not necessarily the model and quality, but accurate measurements.

All camera’s have curvature and sports camera have exaggerated curve which actually gives the effect of closer objects appearing further away.

Calibration is essentially prove of the measurements so prior calibration where the position on the bars and distace (eg. 1 meter) is known. This is like a reference and some cameras gave tramlines which should be verified to confirm accuracy.... fairly straightforward, just needs the effort.

The second part which doesn’t necessarily require the initial calibration is using identifying information at the scene of the crime which verifies the space / distances. Lane markings are perfect for this.

The more work that is done, the harder it is to challenge the plausibility.

Many years ago a duty officer told me my footage was not admissible and was reluctant to accept and action my report. I subsequently git a confirmation from the area commander that the duty officer provided false information. But where there is any doubt, the higher the risk of it being discounted... so the bothersome task of providing the verifications really helps.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:26 am

This one is in the news (most local sources paywalled)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -road.html

Another source (possibly unreliable) said he was grilled as a witness for two hours, despite the camera all being very obvious and police being supportive.

Seems driver still managed to walk away from court with only the minimum fine despite wasting everyone's time fighting obvious guilt.

Bicycle Qld Facebook has more details

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby redsonic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:33 am

Jmuzz wrote:This one is in the news (most local sources paywalled)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -road.html

Another source (possibly unreliable) said he was grilled as a witness for two hours, despite the camera all being very obvious and police being supportive.

Seems driver still managed to walk away from court with only the minimum fine despite wasting everyone's time fighting obvious guilt.

Bicycle Qld Facebook has more details


Despite the publicity and article being good for showcasing the 1m law, the Daily Mail journalist couldn't help but reveal their bias:
Mr Hewes was sharing a single lane roadway with the truck driver, who was unable to swerve past double lines into the opposing lane to safely get past him.

Because of course a truck is unable to slow down or move over....

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby antigee » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:49 am

Jmuzz wrote:This one is in the news (most local sources paywalled)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -road.html

Another source (possibly unreliable) said he was grilled as a witness for two hours, despite the camera all being very obvious and police being supportive.

Seems driver still managed to walk away from court with only the minimum fine despite wasting everyone's time fighting obvious guilt.

Bicycle Qld Facebook has more details


no need for a calibrated camera with that pass :(

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:56 pm

antigee wrote:no need for a calibrated camera with that pass :(


Depends on the details.
Some reports make it sound like he had to attend court and testify as a witness, which suggests the defence managed to eliminate the footage as adequate evidence and he had to be put through the process of explaining he can judge the difference between 10cm from his knuckles and 1m.

I'm not sure what the real story is.

Also not sure why he only got the standard fine?
I though taking a fine to court exposed you to max penalty at magistrates judgement? They say magistrate was angry, but if that was the case surely magistrate would slap a bigger penalty on him?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:10 pm

So nearly killing somebody has only a slightly larger penalty than not wearing a foam hat.....

Makes sense...

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:44 pm

human909 wrote:So nearly killing somebody has only a slightly larger penalty than not wearing a foam hat.....

Makes sense...

Points will hurt more then the dollars. Unless he shares them with his friends
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:04 pm

Normally if you contest the ticket and go to court, if you are still found guilty you get a bigger fine. I'm curious why this ticket went to court? Did the cyclist have bypass the police and go to court or did the truck driver contest the ticket? Also why wasn't the fine higher as what usually happens when it ends in court?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby human909 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:25 pm

I believe the truck driver contested it.

Im not a legal speaking guy but... As far as bigger fines go it really depends. If the dispute is reasonable then the fine might not be greater and IMO not should it be as everybody deserves a chance of justice not trial by cop.

On the otherhand if it is deemed to be wasting the court's time or particularly bad offending then your could get greater fines.

On the other hand if you are technically guilty but the offence is deemed trivial you could get less or not fine.

That is my limited understanding.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby antigee » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Normally if you contest the ticket and go to court, if you are still found guilty you get a bigger fine. I'm curious why this ticket went to court? Did the cyclist have bypass the police and go to court or did the truck driver contest the ticket? Also why wasn't the fine higher as what usually happens when it ends in court?


The Facebook posts from Bicycle Queensland suggest the driver simply chose to contest the ticket:

"Bicycle Queensland
13 September at 06:32 ·
With our full support, Gold Coast cyclist Ron Hewes just won a major court battle.
Late last year he was nearly killed when a truck passed him at a distance of 20cm - a distance verified by police forensics based on Ron's camera footage and road markings.
The Mudgeeraba police said it was the closest call they’d ever seen and gave the driver an infringement. The driver disputed the infringement and the case went to court."


"Bicycle Queensland
Ron spent two hours in the witness box being interrogated by the driver's legal team. The driver argued he had left enough room for Ron, and that if he had been too close, Ron would have been knocked off or injured ... among other things.

Ron spent hours preparing his file notes and materials to refute the driver's arguments. The fact that the driver felt he had cause to dispute the infringement suggests a complete disregard for road safety."


from (possibly never that sure on FB links) https://www.facebook.com/bicycle.qld/po ... __tn__=K-R

Either the drivers legal advise was poor or he just went ahead anyway - surely the idea of the minimum passing law was to remove the defense of "i thought I'd left enough room"

The driver exposed himself to the possibility of $5200 fine but presumably didn't care - pity the magistrate didn't impose it...looks like wasted police time and court time

"Penalties

As a motorist, you will get 3 demerit points and a $391 fine if you do not give the minimum distance when you pass a bicycle rider. If the matter goes to court, a maximum fine of more than $5,200 can apply."


https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety ... r/cyclists

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby jasonc » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:12 pm

I read somewhere he only got 2 points. If so, why?
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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby Jmuzz » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:17 pm

human909 wrote:On the otherhand if it is deemed to be wasting the court's time or particularly bad offending then your could get greater fines.


Bicycle QLD claimed the magistrate was not happy with the driver wasting everyone's time, if two hours in witness box then a hell of a lot of time for a magistrates court too!

But that is at odds with the fine given.

They went silent on giving a further explanation on why the driver got minimum fine.

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Re: NSW 1 metre passing distance + increase cyclist fines

Postby find_bruce » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:14 pm

jasonc wrote:I read somewhere he only got 2 points. If so, why?

Don’t think that's correct - I am reasonably sure that magistrates can’t make a decision about points- they apply automatically as an administrative action upon conviction

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