UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:19 pm

I know I started a thread on this earlier in the year, but I think it wound up locked by mods which is maybe why I cannot find it in my posts records, anyway, briefly, Jan 18 this year, 2.15PM, 39 deg C, I was stopped by police and later mailed an infringement for having a broad-brimmed hat on in place of helmet, helmet was on carry-rack of bike, I was also wearing viz-vest, when stopped by patrol car I told (female) officer that on a day like right now, I'm prioritising the the threat of sunstroke as higher than the threat of a busted skull. Which is true, is exactly the reason I had it with me but had hat in place of in the middle part of that trip.

Although officer said I might might receive an infringement, but was not written on spot, days later up it popped in mail.
I decided to have it heard, rather than just pay it. It has taken from Jan 18 to today for it to come to court.
The officer twice called me about it, the second time about a month back weeks was just to inform me that she was now sending the summons paperwork out, the first time, back in march/April, was to clarify my response on the back of the notice,she seemed bewildered that I wished to defend it. That convo rapidly became heated.

Anyway, in I went today, our crowd moved twice to other courts on other floors due to administrative f-ups by court staff..in the third court, came up, I plead guilty said it was not disputed by me that the helmet was not on my head when intercepted, but was on my bike, that I almost always wear one, I played class show and tell with the hat I'd been wearing, which was not even mentioned by the cop in the brief she had written. I I also presented the vizvest, said that I'd in fact even been wearing that when all of this went down (point being that I m not someone who is blase about cycling safety) ..
Anyway, cut the rest short.
No conviction, to be of good behavior for 6 months (if I do something bad the penalty would be liable to be re-instated obviously)
so, yeah ..grateful to the (female) mago...great mago...she cut some bloke who got done for riding a bike through a red-light in Parkville a bit of a deal too, so when I saw that happen in front of me, I thought I had a shot..

made it a good day, even though I was in the building from 9.30am till almost 3pm...
Thanks for those who indicated some level of sympathy or support here.
Those who either gave me raspberrys, said I was a whining emergency-vehicle siren, told me to suck it up because c I was going down .....well, no hard feelings but....( makes hand-gesture you of course can't see anyway)

Philistine
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby Philistine » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:26 pm

Well done. You backed yourself and you got rewarded for it.

Most people won't go to court because they think the magistrates court is just a rubber stamp for the police (years ago they were called police courts). I have defended myself a few times and in every case except one the magistrate has bent over backwards to be fair.

fat and old
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby fat and old » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:18 pm

I’ll second that. Actions count big time for me, and a just reward is always nice.

It was funny reading about the second call from the cop. I had something similar a while back where I went chose to go to court rather than roll over and the ticket issuer couldn’t believe I claimed to know more about the law than him. Which as it turned out, I did.

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13291
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:25 pm

Thanks for sharing this, though I think you cut the story short at exactly the point where I wanted more.

Can you elaborate on why the fine wasn't upheld, it wasn't disputed that the helmet wasn't on your head and I am wondering if it was simply a matter of being too trivial (hence dropped)... or something else?


I can understand that it is easier and preferable for law enforcement to simply process a fine than to have to challenge which is far more time consuming and puts them in the spotlight. For a person fined it is either about challenging the decision (disagreement that the fine was applicable) or, as it seems in this case, bringing the laws into court (to challenge the validity of the law as well as interpretation).

User avatar
Derny Driver
Posts: 2400
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:18 pm
Location: Wollongong

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:43 pm

Imagine if everyone who received a fine (for anything) took the court election option. The police rely on everyone having CBF and just paying it.
I got some speed camera fines interstate in Victoria. Ive elected to have them heard in court (in NSW). Im happy to pay them if I get a summons. Be interesting to see if VicPol can be bothered doing the documentation and paperwork to get it to court. Im certainly not just going to post them a cheque.
I contest nearly all my fines. I have about a 50% success rate which Im happy with.
I would certainly contest a helmet fine. Even if just to make the plod spend an hour typing up a report.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:08 am

Philistine wrote:Well done. You backed yourself and you got rewarded for it.

Most people won't go to court because they think the magistrates court is just a rubber stamp for the police (years ago they were called police courts). I have defended myself a few times and in every case except one the magistrate has bent over backwards to be fair.



t/y...yes, I was worried when we lost the first magistrate becaus he had seemed at least reasonably fair, even though he did give one bloke 6 months in prison , so when moved to another courtroom for the second time, I though what might we get instead of him, when I heard she was female I thought," if it is judge Judy I'm fkd..." ...anyway, the (young for mago) sheila was if anything a bit more lenient, I was more than pleased, obviously..it was as good a result as I could have hoped for...I actually thought best I could expect was maybe reduce fine amount and/or pay standard $82 costs unit...but I got the top outcome.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:15 am

Derny Driver wrote:Imagine if everyone who received a fine (for anything) took the court election option. The police rely on everyone having CBF and just paying it.
I got some speed camera fines interstate in Victoria. Ive elected to have them heard in court (in NSW). Im happy to pay them if I get a summons. Be interesting to see if VicPol can be bothered doing the documentation and paperwork to get it to court. Im certainly not just going to post them a cheque.
I contest nearly all my fines. I have about a 50% success rate which Im happy with.
I would certainly contest a helmet fine. Even if just to make the plod spend an hour typing up a report.



I believe if you have a plausible excuse/reason, you go and have a say and a go, if not, you don't...the motor vehicle fines I've received over the decades, I never fought any of them, because I could not see anything to get traction with in any of them...in the ones I received in the very early days, early 80s, I should have just pled guilty but in poverty...it never occurred to me back then that you would get any sympathy on that front.
In those days you could serve jail time instead of fines.
Now, you really can't anyway, until they have exhausted all other options to extract payment.
Which means, if you own anything of value , which I now well and truly do have roots of value, they have a lever to make you pay, if you don't, then they can no longer make a stone bleed I guess,(which they could back in the good old days) that's the only hope you have, if that is hope.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:28 am

AUbicycles wrote:Thanks for sharing this, though I think you cut the story short at exactly the point where I wanted more.

Can you elaborate on why the fine wasn't upheld, it wasn't disputed that the helmet wasn't on your head and I am wondering if it was simply a matter of being too trivial (hence dropped)... or something else?


I can understand that it is easier and preferable for law enforcement to simply process a fine than to have to challenge which is far more time consuming and puts them in the spotlight. For a person fined it is either about challenging the decision (disagreement that the fine was applicable) or, as it seems in this case, bringing the laws into court (to challenge the validity of the law as well as interpretation).


the matter was not really in nay way dropped...I have signed a 6 mths good behavior promise/bond. It can come back to haunt me if I breach that. A breach, as I understand it, would be being cited again for another cycling safety breach, or just F-ing some sht up in general and again coming b4 a court.

I argued that I was not in nay way blase about safety, more the opposite (which is in fact true) and that the non-wearing of helmet was a virtual one-off brought on by the extreme weather conditions and UV, that I am someone who knows having been sunburned badly numerous times in my teens and 20s, that I cannot afford more severe sunburn.I produced the vizvest I always wear, and was in fact wearing that day when stopped by the officer.
I produced the hat, to show that that was the reason the helmet was off, not just that I was simply riding bare-headed (as the copper seemed to suggest in her report ...there was no mention of the hat, or what Is aid to her about sunstroke..no mention that it was a brutally-hot day at its zenith ...all she said was "conditions were fine" ..and that my reason for not wearing it were, quote" because it is hot!" that was not even resembling the convo I had with her..she also said I'd questioned or remonstrated when she suggested I now put the helmet on..which was false also, I put it on readily and without comment. I only had 500m left to go to Richmond station at that point anyway.
She accepted all or most of this, and gave me or more like the court a short reminder on how wearing helmets is important, and imposed the 6mths good character contract.
the prosecuting cop never commented or objected to any of it throughout.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:39 am

I'd add, that I was also arm in sling from the accident I've posted about here...in July, a driver ran a red light on Heatherton Rd, ploughed into me while I was turning right with a green light facing me, and put me in an ambulance and hospital broken left clavicle and 3 fractured ribs.

I pointed out that on that occasion, 4pm on main road in cool July weather, that I WAS wearing a helmet.

(the police there tossed my helmet into back of ambulance after me...they do tha for a reason, with cycle and motorcycle accident,the spinal neuro head injury crew at the hospital sometimes examine helmets for evidence of direction of impacts etc..)

anyway, I brought that up as evidence that usually I'm a helmet wearer...and even though some half-blind old woman recently almost killed me while I was wearing it (and vizvest)

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:44 am

fat and old wrote:I’ll second that. Actions count big time for me, and a just reward is always nice.

It was funny reading about the second call from the cop. I had something similar a while back where I went chose to go to court rather than roll over and the ticket issuer couldn’t believe I claimed to know more about the law than him. Which as it turned out, I did.


oh, the second call recently was short and abrupt convo, she rang fairly early in day, by the time I registered who she was and Say What it was about, she'd told me she was mailing me the brief today...I grunted and hung the phone up.

In March/April she rang to ask Say What was with me returning the notice with elect to have it heard...that call rapidly devolved into a terse exchange..she had told me at the scene that 'we have a payment plan" with a huge stupid smirk on her face...I mimicked her saying that and how she said it, during that March/April phone convo..

Philistine
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby Philistine » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:55 am

Veering off topic but WTH...

A few years ago I was booked for speeding (sadly not on my bike), and, although I was guilty, I felt it was harsh in the circumstances - empty road, six in the morning - and I said so with some warmth. I had been wearing my seat belt when stopped and I unclipped it when the lead plod appeared at my window. When I was given the ticket a few minutes later, I found there were actually two of them, one for speeding and one for not wearing a seat belt (allegedly - in reality the second ticket was for talking back). I paid the first and defended the second.

It came to court about six months later and two cops were in the courtroom, the driver who booked me and his mate who had been in the passenger seat and who had taken absolutely no part in the original proceedings. They each handed me their statement. Both were dated the same day, four and a half months after the original alleged offence, and they screamed out collusion - same language, same typos, same poor grammar, same spelling mistakes! I wanted to make something of this but I was nervous about getting the magistrate offside if I openly bagged the police in court. I needn't have worried. The magistrate himself homed straight in on the collusion, asking the police why it had taken so long to write their statements, what notes, if any, they had used to refresh their memories, and why they had not presented those notes to the court (best evidence), and then threw the case out.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:20 am

Philistine wrote:Veering off topic but WTH...

e who had been in the passenger seat and who had taken absolutely no part in the original proceedings. They each handed me their statement. Both were dated the same day, four and a half months after the original alleged offence, and they screamed out collusion - same language, same typos, same poor grammar, same spelling mistakes! I wanted to make something of this but I was nervous about getting the magistrate offside if I openly bagged the police in court. I needn't have worried. The magistrate himself homed straight in on the collusion, asking the police why it had taken so long to write their statements, what notes, if any, they had used to refresh their memories, and why they had not presented those notes to the court (best evidence), and then threw the case out.


reeks of 'getting story straight.
Certainly I too would have remonstrated solidly about the seat-belt charge if it only came off after I'd been stopped.

I made an aside about the cop's brief having an account of our convo at the initial incident which 'just bore not even the remotest resemblance to what was said"...which it did not. The young male prosecuting cop smirked, but did not comment. It was not what she had said, and certainly none of it was what I said, nor even how I talk..she had made me sound like some dull-witted teenager...she also claimed I argued when she insisted I either walk bike or put on helmet...complete fantasy and fabrication.

But like you, I kept that very short and nice, because I worried about coming off a smart-arse and it coming through that I think the (young female ) Jack (Jill?) is an Fwit. Which I do. But here am I, in front of the nice (young female) Mag..so I don't need any anti-police attitudes coming through (which I am pro-police in almost every argument anyway) but, more to the point...I don't need to trip any gender-politics booby-mines...Jack was a sheila...you are not allowed to seem like you think any sheila is an Fwit.Not when ur a middle-aged white man, anyway.
So when she waved me quiet not long into my bitch about the officer getting our talk dialogue at scene
completely wrong, I shut up right off.

human909
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:48 am

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby human909 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:09 am

Another well done from me. :mrgreen:

uart
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby uart » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:40 am

Good outcome Retro. :D

RetroPilot wrote:I believe if you have a plausible excuse/reason, you go and have a say and a go, if not, you don't...

I agree with this.

Many years ago my mother used to work as a court Librarian ( assisting the Judges/Magistrates with finding case information), and she would recount how many of them would "throw out" any cases that they considered too frivolous. That is, they don't always simply "rubber stamp" whatever the police/prosecutors want!

By "throw out" I mean specifically that they use section 10 of the crimes act to find you guilty but to not proceed to conviction. Basically what that means is that, you plead guilty, the Judge finds that you did what the police said that you did, but the Judge then says that despite that, they will not record any conviction or issue any penalty. It happens more often than people think.

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13291
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:08 pm

Thanks for the details - my interpretation is that the leniency is similar to people who are granted a religious exception (i.e. turban) and that you demonstrated some grounds / exceptional circumstance which the judge found acceptable.

Without being there, I would assume that because you demonstrated an understanding of the law and typical compliance, that this helped. Not to mention that it could start to get tricky if required helmet use and eventual skin cancer would create some kind of liability for the government. I realise that is a far-stretch but I feel it may also be a possibility that an unwanted precedent is established.

fat and old
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby fat and old » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:45 pm

AUbicycles wrote:Thanks for the details - my interpretation is that the leniency is similar to people who are granted a religious exception (i.e. turban) and that you demonstrated some grounds / exceptional circumstance which the judge found acceptable.

Without being there, I would assume that because you demonstrated an understanding of the law and typical compliance, that this helped. Not to mention that it could start to get tricky if required helmet use and eventual skin cancer would create some kind of liability for the government. I realise that is a far-stretch but I feel it may also be a possibility that an unwanted precedent is established.


One day I’m gonna make sure I get a fine for no helmet just so I can go to court and argue this religious exemption bs. Either my god protects my head as well as theirs or neither do because we don’t need one (a helmet). I really really want to do this. There has to be some discrimination issue there somewhere.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:32 am

uart wrote:Good outcome Retro. :D

RetroPilot wrote:I believe if you have a plausible excuse/reason, you go and have a say and a go, if not, you don't...

I agree with this.

Many years ago my mother used to work as a court Librarian ( assisting the Judges/Magistrates with finding case information), and she would recount how many of them would "throw out" any cases that they considered too frivolous. That is, they don't always simply "rubber stamp" whatever the police/prosecutors want!

By "throw out" I mean specifically that they use section 10 of the crimes act to find you guilty but to not proceed to conviction. Basically what that means is that, you plead guilty, the Judge finds that you did what the police said that you did, but the Judge then says that despite that, they will not record any conviction or issue any penalty. It happens more often than people think.



yes...it is probably most of that in substance, with the addition or exception that I have agreed by signature contract to be of good behavior for 6months...or at least to be of unnoticed bad behavior.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:39 am

Without being there, I would assume that because you demonstrated an understanding of the law and typical compliance, that this helped

yes..and even the cop's brief, although inaccurate or incomplete in numerous details, stated up front that my helmet was visible on the bike. 'Typical compliance " is genuine, btw...I do overwhelmingly typically comply.


One day I’m gonna make sure I get a fine for no helmet just so I can go to court and argue this religious exemption bs. Either my god protects my head as well as theirs or neither do because we don’t need one (a helmet). I really really want to do this. There has to be some discrimination issue there somewhere.

not sure how Sikhs and what have you, go, if wearing a turban on bike. Get a foam or kevlar turban and a strap to hold it on, I guess, could be an answer.

Arbuckle23
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:07 pm
Location: Mornington Peninsula

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby Arbuckle23 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:55 am

RetroPilot wrote:not sure how Sikhs and what have you, go, if wearing a turban on bike. Get a foam or kevlar turban and a strap to hold it on, I guess, could be an answer.


They can simply wear a sports turban as Indian Sikh cricketers do under cricket helmets.

uart
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:15 pm
Location: Newcastle

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby uart » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:43 am

RetroPilot wrote:yes...it is probably most of that in substance, with the addition or exception that I have agreed by signature contract to be of good behavior for 6months...or at least to be of unnoticed bad behavior.


Yeah your case is a little different, as what I was talking about are cases where you *have* to attend court rather than traffic matters where court is optional. I was just bringing it up to highlight that the Judge/Magistrate doesn't just rubber stamp whatever the police/prosecutor wants. They do have the very real option of not proceeding to conviction even when it's a slam dunk case that you actually did what the police alleged.

I can clearly remember my mum recounting how it was kind of a slap in the face to the police when this happened, and that it did serve to keep them in check in terms of not charging people for really frivolous issues.

RetroPilot
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:27 pm

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby RetroPilot » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:45 am

I can clearly remember my mum recounting how it was kind of a slap in the face to the police when this happened, and that it did serve to keep them in check in terms of not charging people for really frivolous issues.


Yes...I actually believe that in majority of such instances with all else similar to what happened in my case, the majority of cops would have let it go with a warning..even she did not write a ticket on the spot.And did not state that she would...she basically indicated that she had not made up her mind herself..then, 4-5 days later in mail, there it is...lol.

I've seen three stops for no helmet breaches on 'Highway Patrol" or 'motorcycle cops" now..vic and NSW, respectively..apparently penalty in NSW is double what it is here even. Anyway, all three were issued warnings...the case in Hastings Vic was the most bizarre..some American or Canadian bloke ..she told him 'no helmet, you can't ride on, get off and walk it! " Fair enough...he launches into a bizarre rant and tirade to the show crew about power-mad cowboy cops in V8 interceptors..(the police Commodore was only a basic 3.8 Ecotec anyway, I think) ...anyway, off he goes on foot, whilst grumbling about it... she is parked, glances up a minute or two later, here he is 2-3-400m up the road, remounted again...so she jumps into car, catches up to him, and this time, of course, tickets him.

Case like that, I had no sympathy for the ratbag myself..he was given a pass, and effectively put his middle finger up at her 5 mins later..his original excuse was that his helmet had been stolen...which was probably BS anyway..

fat and old
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:58 pm

RetroPilot wrote:One day I’m gonna make sure I get a fine for no helmet just so I can go to court and argue this religious exemption bs. Either my god protects my head as well as theirs or neither do because we don’t need one (a helmet). I really really want to do this. There has to be some discrimination issue there somewhere.

not sure how Sikhs and what have you, go, if wearing a turban on bike. Get a foam or kevlar turban and a strap to hold it on, I guess, could be an answer.


In almost every state Sikhs have (or can get) an exemption as it is not practicable to wear a helmet over their turban. I rarely mention this as being over 50, white and fat I'm very aware that at least some of the population will hit me with the racism stick, or religious bias stick, or vilification stick, or white privilege stick or just a plain old stick.

It matters not. If it is so important that our heads be protected how is that one particular sub set of the population can be exempted on a basis that has nothing at all to do with safety? Nothing. Surely if religious beliefs are more important than safety other things are too? Or are religious beliefs that apex of our society? Given the push on the various religions (primarily christian; jews and muslims for instance are smart enough to keep their heads low) to forego centuries of tradition/canon law when it comes to reporting heinous crimes I think not. Society comes first.

Maybe the anti MHL brigade need to hook up with the Sikh cyclists, conduct some studies on injury rates per kilo riddn and debunk this safety crap. There's the only officially sanctioned control group in Australia, going begging.

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13291
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:36 pm

fat and old, I think this is going up the wrong path. The exceptions are not about 'fairness' rather they are about practicality.

When there is a religious or medical exception to wearing a helmet - it is about simplicity and reducing the complexity. The law can continue to serve 99.8% of the population.

For people opposed to the MHL it is easy to look at people or groups who are eligible for an exception and see it as unfair but I really feel this is completely beside the point. For this law and many others it is about broader groups in society who want to unite and challenge and oppose the law for everyone.

fat and old
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:06 pm
Location: Mill Park

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:34 pm

AUbicycles wrote:
For people opposed to the MHL it is easy to look at people or groups who are eligible for an exception and see it as unfair but I really feel this is completely beside the point. For this law and many others it is about broader groups in society who want to unite and challenge and oppose the law for everyone.


I have no information on medical exemptions so am not commenting on those.

I have not claimed that it’s unfair. I’ve claimed that it’s possibly discriminatory. More importantly, I’ve claimed that it’s a clear indication that our regulators do not take our safety as seriously as they make out. How can our safety be paramount when an exemption can be claimed on religious grounds?

On your advice: What I have suggested is using the experiences of this group to promote the easing of MHL’s for everyone.

However, as earlier stated I can see the writing on the wall and that was my last word on this. In this thread. :D

User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13291
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney & Frankfurt
Contact:

Re: UPDATE ..on my no helmet ticket Victoria

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:18 pm

I understand the point, but then the argument against MHL would too heavily included in those aspects (unfairness or discriminatory) as opposed to a challenge of the broader merits of the legislation.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users