spreading old steel bike frame rear dropouts to 130mm

[dekay23]

Just thought I should share my experience of spreading the rear dropouts on old steel frame (started out at 120mm, ended up at 130mm) to fit a hub with a 10 speed cassette. Sheldon Brown suggests using a lump of 2x4 and bending by feel. I was a bit scared to do that so made a little rig using some hardwood and a bolt (actually the axle out of my bike travel bag) to carefully spread each side. The steps were:
1) clamp some timber (approx 1m long) to the downtube so it passes outside the seat tube and along the inside of the stays you want to bend (see pics). I drilled a shallow hole in the timber so the bolt didn't move while adjusting. (I ended up using two pieces of 25mm or so hardwood - a single piece bent too much - you can see even two pieces bends quite a bit)
2) use a long threaded bolt with a washer and nut to spread the stays. I tried a few different distances spreading and releasing until the stays were permanently bent. Adjusted 4-5mm further each time. Ended up spreading to 148mm to get a distance of 125mm after spring back on the right side first.
3) repeat on left side - this time I went to 152mm after a few goes to get a total spread of 130mm.
All worked fine - but it took ages (maybe 4 hours all up). Probably the Sheldon method would work just as well, and much faster! I think it is definitely worth doing though - pain the arse to spread the frame each time you take remove the back wheel. (had a couple of flats lately)

Bending right stays


Bending left stays


Final dimensions

[Baalzamon]

Have you verified if the drops are true after doing that?

[dekay23]

Have you verified if the drops are true after doing that?

Not yet. They won't be perfectly parallel anymore. But not much worse than spreading them every time i put the wheel in, which i haven been doing for a while.

[Uncle Just]

All worked fine - but it took ages (maybe 4 hours all up). Probably the Sheldon method would work just as well, and much faster!

His method does work well and is faster.

[YearoftheCat]

Also worth running a string from the dropout up and around the head tube and checking the distance to the seat tube side to side. I think Sheldon details this on the cold setting page. I've just been through this with an old Peugeot but I used the standard Sheldon method.

[Covbandit]

Been trying to find info like this, hope to put it to good use soon.
I asked cycle shops advertising on ebay but there reluctant to give any good answers or tips. Do you do the same with the front forks also as I would like to put 2 new wheels in that I found on ebay.
Also one guy tells me I have to watch what wheel I buy for the cassettes as some are scrwe on and others....haven't a clue.
I would love 8-9 on the back and single on the crank.

Dawes Lightning
Just measured my front and rear axle.
Front between forks is 120mm
Rear between forks is 90mm
Will mine pull out 5mm each side? I don't remember how flexible these tubes are.
It's not a lot to ask.

Above question is what I put to the guy selling these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350650427630? ... 1226wt_722" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

27X1 1/4 PAIR ALLOY WHEELS

THIS IS FOR FRONT AND REAR WHEELS!

27X11/4 REAR ALLOY WHEEL

ALLOY WEINMANN RIM

ALLOY HUB WILL TAKE UP TO 7 SPEED SCREW ON FREEWHEEL.

SOLID AXLE, WHEELNUTS INCLUDED

REAR AXLE LENGTHS:

LOCKNUT TO LOCKNUT: 130MM

OVERALL LENGTH: 175MM




27X1 1/4 FRONT WHEEL

ALLOY WEINMANN RIM

ALLOY HUB

SOLID AXLE, WHEELNUTS INCLUDED

FRONT AXLE LENGTH:

LOCKNUT TO LOCKNUT: 100MM

OVERALL LENGTH: 140MM

Do you think I could tweak mine out enough?

I have searched through Sheldon Brown bit on cold setting but could not find any info on how to do it ....anyone know where the link is?.......FOUND IT!

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rkelsen]

Interesting method. The quickest way is with your car's scissor jack.

After bending (cold setting! ) stays, you have to re-check the frame alignment.

Dave Moulton has some excellent advice if you muck it up: http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com.au/20 ... stays.html

[dekay23]

Been trying to find info like this, hope to put it to good use soon.
I asked cycle shops advertising on ebay but there reluctant to give any good answers or tips. Do you do the same with the front forks also as I would like to put 2 new wheels in that I found on ebay.
Also one guy tells me I have to watch what wheel I buy for the cassettes as some are scrwe on and others....haven't a clue.
I would love 8-9 on the back and single on the crank.

...
Do you think I could tweak mine out enough?

I have searched through Sheldon Brown bit on cold setting but could not find any info on how to do it ....anyone know where the link is?.......FOUND IT!

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As long as it is steel you can bend the frame. As far as I know, the front forks should be ok (the rear width changes due to increasing numbers of gears).

One issue with new wheels on older bikes is making sure the brake calipers can reach (700c wheels are a bit smaller than 27" wheels - confusing I know!) - you may need longer reach calipers.

Older wheels tend to have screw on freewheels, while newer wheels tend to have cassettes (http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). You only need to worry about this when you buy a new set of rear gears - make sure you get the type that matches your rear hub. There is usually an obvious bump in the hub if you need the newer cassette type.

If you increase the number of gears at the back, you may also need a new derailleur and rear shifter (definitely will if the shifters are indexed)

Good luck! Bikes are pretty awesome machines that are designed to be repaired and upgraded. Not the planned obsolescence we see in so many other goods these days.

[ironhanglider]

Been trying to find info like this, hope to put it to good use soon.
I asked cycle shops advertising on ebay but there reluctant to give any good answers or tips. Do you do the same with the front forks also as I would like to put 2 new wheels in that I found on ebay.
Also one guy tells me I have to watch what wheel I buy for the cassettes as some are scrwe on and others....haven't a clue.
I would love 8-9 on the back and single on the crank.

Dawes Lightning
Just measured my front and rear axle.
Front between forks is 120mm
Rear between forks is 90mm
Will mine pull out 5mm each side? I don't remember how flexible these tubes are.
It's not a lot to ask.

Really? I'm assuming your measures are back to front. Even then it seems unusually narrow particularly at the front. 120mm is a standard size for single speed and hub geared bikes. Is it a really old bike? In which case the retro forum might be more helpful.

In any case 10mm is probably within range for most steel bike frames and forks, but there is always some risk as Sheldon points out. The other alternative would be to try and reduce the spacing of the wheels to make them fit.

For example I have a tandem with a 126mm rear spacing. Since it has an extra stay between the seat tube and the seat stay it is really stiff. I have been stuffing a 130mm rear wheel in without cold setting the frame, but I recently came across an old 7spd cassette hub and I'm building up a 126mm wheel instead and using 8 cogs with 9spd spacing on a 7spd body. This will give me a wheel that will fit better and I can also space it out to give better clearance between the small cog and the frame, since the dropout is not designed to have the cogs so close and the cog fouls the chain stay when putting the wheel in and pulling it out.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Covbandit]

You are correct I mixed the sizes up

Just measured a collegues at work he has an 8 gears on the back 135mm....15mm bigger I should be ok?

Anyone got more info about what wheels/hubs fit what cassette, or any advice on a pair to go for concidering my delema.
Also is it only certain ones you can change the teeth on or is this an option on all gears?

Another collegue has 10 on the back but I definatly do not need a range like that

It would help if I were not trying to do it on the cheap and went to a reputable shop but got put off with 2 shops trying to sell me £125 per rim stuff.

Nice, but the bike don't need it.

Trying to source off ebay etc I'll end up getting something wrong

[Duck!]

135mm is a MTB hub (they're a tad wider than road hubs to allow for disc brakes), so bending that far might be stretching the friendship a bit. 8, 9 & 10-sp. cassettes all fit on the same hub, they just pack the sprockets in closer to make them fit. 7-sp. can be either cassette or screw-on freewheel; cassette hubs use a shorter freewheel body than 8/9/10-sp. so can't fit those cassettes, but both types still use the 130 & 135mm spacings. 11-sp. hubs are becoming more common as that many gears filters down to lower groupset levels. These also fit in 130mm spacing, but use a longer freewheel body to accommodate the cassette. You can fit 8/9/10-sp. cassettes to 11-sp. hubs with a spacer (or two for certain 10-sp. cassettes).

[find_bruce]

135mm is a MTB hub (they're a tad wider than road hubs to allow for disc brakes), so bending that far might be stretching the friendship a bit. 8, 9 & 10-sp. cassettes all fit on the same hub, they just pack the sprockets in closer to make them fit. 7-sp. can be either cassette or screw-on freewheel; cassette hubs use a shorter freewheel body than 8/9/10-sp. so can't fit those cassettes, but both types still use the 130 & 135mm spacings. 11-sp. hubs are becoming more common as that many gears filters down to lower groupset levels. These also fit in 130mm spacing, but use a longer freewheel body to accommodate the cassette. You can fit 8/9/10-sp. cassettes to 11-sp. hubs with a spacer (or two for certain 10-sp. cassettes).

A minor issue & it may just be a typo, but 7 speed road was 126mm and mtb was 130 mm - see Sheldon's page

[Covbandit]

Well this Guy will not commit himself.
Can I get these on below with 7 - 9 gears?
Then a little bit of help ideally from his shop for gears and derailiers

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350650427630? ... 1226wt_722" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks all so much

Oh, would like to have a 11 tooth for my smallest cog, not too bothered about other end 24 or so, are any of his gears changeable or are all of them you buy?

[ironhanglider]

These wheels only take a screw on free-wheel. 7 spd is easily available. 8 speed are rare but possible. 9 spd no. Screw-on freewheels cannot have an 11T cog and 12T is pretty rare too. Screw on free-wheels mostly died out in the 90s except on cheap bikes.

More common now is to have a free-hub with a cassette. Whilst the early free hubs were mostly 7spd, the vast majority will accept 8,9 or 10spd cassettes. Freehub cassettes will accept an 11T cog.

27" wheels mostly died out in the 80's, and even then it is usually possible to run these bikes with the more common 700c size with either a brake adjustment or sometimes with different brake callipers. Freehub wheels didn't become common until the 90's so there are not many 27" wheels around with a free hub.

I'd suggest that if you can make it work 700c wheels then a 9spd cassette is a good option. This is because there is a lot of old stock stuff around cheaply which will be around for a while since it survived longer as an MTB standard. Otherwise if it has to be a screw-on you could use a 7spd screw on, with either 7 or 8spd shifters since they mostly have the same cable pull. (8spd Dura-Ace is the exception).

Are you looking at flat bars or road bars?

Cheers,

Cameron

[Covbandit]

Thanks for that, any chance of some ebay or similar links to show me what I should go for.

I have always known them as race bars maybe you call them road bars.

[ironhanglider]

The first thing would be to work out whether 700c wheels will fit either with your existing brakes or whether you need to replace them.

Do you have wheels for this frame?
What size are they?
How much adjustment do you have available with your brakes? (700c wheels are 4mm smaller at the brake pads than 27")

Not forgetting that front and rear wheels are not necessarily the same.

If you don't have wheels at all You'll have to work by measurements. A 700c wheel is about 310mm from axle to the middle of the rim. Calliper brakes have different length arms with typically a 10mm range of adjustment. They can be anywhere from 35mm to 75mm from the mounting bolt to the pad.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Covbandit]

Yikes!!

I currently have 27" wheels on it.

There does appear to be quite a bit of range on the block brakes, these are an old centre pull on wire.
I think your right about 10mm

[ironhanglider]

Ok. I'll assume that you have enough adjustment to drop the brake pads by 4mm.

What you are looking for is at least:
- Wheels (at least a rear) you can change the front if you want to have interchangeable tyres. (the tubes will swap quite happily).
- Rim tape, tyres and tubes if yours are no good.
- Cassette
- Cassette tool and chain whip
- Chain (designed for the same number of gears as the cassette).

After that will depend on your setup.
If you have friction gears you could continue to use your existing gear levers and derailleurs.

Otherwise you will need to get

- Gear levers to match your cassette
- Handlebar tape
- Rear derailleur (probably)

Possibly also

- Front derailleur
- Crankset

A set of common garden variety 700c clincher wheels. Without wishing to start a religious debate I'll say to get a Shimano pattern free hub, on the basis that they are the most common and easiest to match with other parts. If you buy second-hand, any wheels with 8 cogs or more are likely to be suitable as long as they are in good condition (make sure it's not an 8spd screw-on check Sheldon). Although probably best to avoid Tubulars (also known as Singles, Sew-ups, glue-ons, strips or sprints) for the moment.

If you buy new from any of the usual suspects, Wiggle, Ribble, Chain Reaction, Evans etc there are lots of wheels to chose from. You will need to buy your cassette and chain new anyway.

Know that 8, 9 and 10spd all use the same free hub as do rear derailleurs (mostly). If you are going to get levers as well then you need to decide how many gears you will have probably based on what is available at the moment because that will guide your cassette and chain choice.

Of course if you are having to get most of a group set anyway then check the prices of complete group sets as they can be quite reasonable.

Cheers,

Cameron

[Covbandit]

Well that seriously wiped my arse
Thanks so much

ebay here we come!

Looking at some group sets someone mentioned within one of them about square tapers.
Am I correct in thinking the taper is on the cranks and the bottom bracket / bearing will not need changing?

Are mounting bike and road bike groupsets more or less the same?

Does one fit all?

[Duck!]

Looking at some group sets someone mentioned within one of them about square tapers.
Am I correct in thinking the taper is on the cranks and the bottom bracket / bearing will not need changing?

The square taper refers to the interface between the crank arms and the bottom bracket spindle. If you get a new square taper crank you will generally not need to replace the bottom bracket cartridge, but sometimes different cranks requitre a different spindle length, which in most cases means a new bottom bracket assembly.

Are mounting bike and road bike groupsets more or less the same?

Does one fit all?

No. There are broad similarities, and some cross-compatibility, but they are different. Road drive systems are generally built around a narrow gear range (although that is changing), with two relatively large chainrings on the crank (39-53T & 34-50T are the two most common sets) and a close-ratio cassette on the back, typically with the big sprocket being 28T or less. Although available, triple-ring cranks are relatively uncommon. Derailleurs are designed to work with these gear combinations.

MTB groupsets are designed around a much wider & lower gear range, typically with three smaller rings on the crank (typically 22-32-44T, but there are some options up to 48T big ring) and a wide range cassette with up to 36T big sprocket. Derailleurs are optimised to work with this much greater gear range. The triple-ring cranks require greater spacing off the frame, therefore a longer bottom bracket spindle. Rear derailleurs are largely compatible between the two types, but front derailleurs work on different leverage ratios, so don't pair too well with other levers.

[Covbandit]

Found this. Guy waffles on a bit but it is useful and appropriate to this link.

Chain Whip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7gW0FtYmOE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Entending rear drop outs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwxEPRk3LFg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO5V3qkW05g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;